What do you think about the weird behaviour of my custom rifle?

[ssimo]

Answer:

Shoot2Hunt University

I would love to do it, unfortunately i live on the other side of the ocean!

 

[mt terry d]

I would love to do it, unfortunately i live on the other side of the ocean!

Yeah, it's a game changer
I'm far from being an expert but it sure sounds to me like everything points to
"the nut behind the butt"

 

[ssimo]

Yeah, it's a game changer
I'm far from being an expert but it sure sounds to me like everything points to
"the nut behind the butt"

I hunted for many years and i ma having issues only with this specific rifle.. i was used to aim and see a hole appear, work this rifle it is just not like this. You aim and you never know where thr group is gonna appear. I tried everything to make this rifle work and i would be happy to be the cause of the issue but i am pretty sure i am not.. i was hoping for someone to tell me, considering his experience, if what i wrote sounded normal or not but apparently this is not an easy question

 

[ssimo]

Something I recently learned: Best results for shooting field rifles comes from applying about as much pressure in pulling the rifle back as it weighs. So, in your case, approximately 11lbs. Be sure to roll your shoulder forward so that it is squared up flat, perpendicular to the bore. You want the bore and your shoulder to form a firm "T", essentially. The purpose for this, is to create a consistent surface, that doesn't have the recoil causing unnecessary jump in the muzzle or optics in any direction - having the shoulder perpendicular/flat helps the bore push straight back, not up-right, etc. The added consistency should, as I understand it, also help with POI consistency.

Another thing to consider is your scope's parallax - it's more of an issue in fixed-parallax scopes than it is with side-focus parallax adjusting knobs. You want your eyeball to be in the exact same place every time, and that it is, ideally, perfectly centered left-right, up-down, and front-to-back of the eye box.

The best way to test this is to get your target under the crosshairs, and then move your head a little bit - up, left, right, down, etc. Any direction. If the target moves out from under the crosshairs, your head is not properly positioned. If your head is properly positioned, there should be zero movement of the target under the crosshairs when you adjust your head a little.

One easy trick to help make sure your head is aligned properly left-right/up-down, is to pull your head back a little from the scope, until you get a ring of scope shadow - make that ring even all the way around, and then gently push your head back forward until you no longer see shadow all the way around, and only light.

good point on the parallax, i always tune it before a shot.

So your rifles changes POI by 1 or 2 MOA if you change the pressure you apply to the shoulder or if you lean the buttpad on a lower back rest?

 

[Speaks]

Your problem rifle does not shoot .2 MOA unless your measuring 1 shot groups....

 

[ssimo]

Your problem rifle does not shoot .2 MOA unless your measuring 1 shot groups....

what?

actually when the rifle performs (only under very specific conditions) groups are even smaller. Being basically one rugged hole it is even difficult to measure but i don't think this detail is important to the thread..

I shoot 3 shot groups for quick zero check (for example if weather changes significantly or if the scope get bumbed a bit or the rifle gets disassembled for maintenance) and 5-10 shot groups for testing the rifle or loads. With 10 shot groups generally at least one shot lands outisde the single hole.

The problem is that this rifle seem to be very inconsistent probably due to the harsh recoil and the rigidity of the system

 

[Macintosh]

Have you listened to the shoot2hunt podcast that is specifically focused on troubleshooting issues just like this? There’s also this thread that might be helpful which also happens to contain a link to the podcast.

Ive never heard anyone say that a custom gun is harder to get to shoot. If its customized for a specific bullet or something maybe it wont be perfect with a very different bullet, etc, but never heard anything that would indicate it being harder to be consistent.

Every gun or measurement issue brought up so far you’ve said doesnt apply. So everything you are saying points to the rifle NOT being the issue, with the difference coming from shooter input and recoil management. You said other guns you have are easier to shoot consistently, and you characterized the recoil as “harsh”—what cartridges are the other guns? Is it simply that this gun recoils more, and is that much more difficult to manage? Have you had another experienced shooter try the gun to see if the issues are the same? If a known-good shooter who is used to shooting with similar or greater recoil can shoot it, it’s you. If they have similar problems, that would point to the equipment.

You already said they were “flawless”, BUT everyone makes a mistake here and there. Have you re-torqued all mounts and action screws, etc? Have you swapped in a different scope? Ive had a couple scopes break, and they exhibited inconsistent results somewhat similar to this, so if the mounts are already double-checked I’d maybe try a different scope temporarily. Yeah, its a NF, but if it all of a sudden starts shooting with a different scope, its a good bet thats the culprit. If it does the same at least you know it isnt the scope.

How close to you is the gunsmith who built it? Can you work with them to diagnose what is going on?

 

[grfox92]

Ill be blunt. I dont think there is anything wrong with the rifle. Also, a gun that is capable of putting 9 out of 10 bullets in one hole doesn't exist, and even if it did, the guy capable executing that group isn't a random guy from Italy who is a "pretty good shot."


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[BishBeCool]

“ a properly set rest or with a Harris bipod and a rear bag.“

^^^^ this is not the same as shooting off of a backpack.

Different position types might get you different results. Are you that good of a shooter in all shooting positions?

 

[ssimo]

“ a properly set rest or with a Harris bipod and a rear bag.“

^^^^ this is not the same as shooting off of a backpack.

Different position types might get you different results. Are you that good of a shooter in all shooting positions?

I don’t know man, i zeroed rifles from a pack with very good results in the last as i said.. groups were not much different than the ones from the bench

 

[ssimo]

“ a properly set rest or with a Harris bipod and a rear bag.“

^^^^ this is not the same as shooting off of a backpack.

Different position types might get you different results. Are you that good of a shooter in all shooting positions?

I don’t know man, i zeroed rifles from a pack with very good results in the last as i said.. groups were not much different than the ones from the bench

 

[ssimo]

Ill be blunt. I dont think there is anything wrong with the rifle. Also, a gun that is capable of putting 9 out of 10 bullets in one hole doesn't exist, and even if it did, the guy capable executing that group isn't a random guy from Italy who is a "pretty good shot."


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The only shot outside was the first one after cleaning.. This is represantwtive of what this rifle does in ideal conditions at 110 yards. I don’t remember if these were 7, 8 or 9 shots.

 

[ssimo]

Have you listened to the shoot2hunt podcast that is specifically focused on troubleshooting issues just like this? There’s also this thread that might be helpful which also happens to contain a link to the podcast.

Ive never heard anyone say that a custom gun is harder to get to shoot. If its customized for a specific bullet or something maybe it wont be perfect with a very different bullet, etc, but never heard anything that would indicate it being harder to be consistent.

Every gun or measurement issue brought up so far you’ve said doesnt apply. So everything you are saying points to the rifle NOT being the issue, with the difference coming from shooter input and recoil management. You said other guns you have are easier to shoot consistently, and you characterized the recoil as “harsh”—what cartridges are the other guns? Is it simply that this gun recoils more, and is that much more difficult to manage? Have you had another experienced shooter try the gun to see if the issues are the same? If a known-good shooter who is used to shooting with similar or greater recoil can shoot it, it’s you. If they have similar problems, that would point to the equipment.

You already said they were “flawless”, BUT everyone makes a mistake here and there. Have you re-torqued all mounts and action screws, etc? Have you swapped in a different scope? Ive had a couple scopes break, and they exhibited inconsistent results somewhat similar to this, so if the mounts are already double-checked I’d maybe try a different scope temporarily. Yeah, its a NF, but if it all of a sudden starts shooting with a different scope, its a good bet thats the culprit. If it does the same at least you know it isnt the scope.

How close to you is the gunsmith who built it? Can you work with them to diagnose what is going on?

If there was a problem with the scope, shouldn’t the gun be less accurate or shouldn’t groups move or open up more randomly?

Tracking is perfect and groups/shots seem to move specifically following the recoil pattern. For example: more free recoil, the bullet goes down because the muzzle flips less. Lower rear bag: th bullet goes up because the muzzle rises more, etc. You hold the rifle too gently and groups open up to 0.8 MOA more or less, you keep it too firmly and groups open up to 0.8 MOA, I know all this is not unusual but I am trying to understand if this is too much. This is in range conditions and it seems like in field conditions these issues are much more severe, with groups opening up significantly and bullet landing randomly on the target.

Also one thing i am thinking of is the cheekweld. With this rifle i definitely feel less comfortable and less “into the gun” in comparison to my older ones. It is more of a chinweld than a cheekweld.

Yes, recoil management with this gun is weird. It doesn’t recoil straight into my shoulder, it is very jumpy. I never managed to keep the eye inside the reticle while shooting, but this is the same for my other hunting 308. The eye goes back to the reticle very fast after the disruption caused by the shot but most of the times the reticle is pointing in a different direction. When I forced myself to make it recoil more straight I didn’t see more consistency, maybe less accuracy

 

[Macintosh]

From the quoted parts below it sounds like you’ve answered your own question.
Also sounds like maybe a significant setup difference from your other guns, ie is ring height or stock geometry significantly different? Sounds like it. 308 isnt what I want to shoot 100 rounds in a sitting, but in an 11lb gun I would not characterize it as “harsh”. Its hard to imagine an 11lb 308 being so difficult to manage, it sounds like you are more in 300rum territory. But what you are describing is exactly what youd expect when dealing with a higher recoiling gun, and when dealing with field vs range. Combine the two, and its awfully noticeable.

Which manners stock is this gun in, and what are the guns/stocks that you are comparing to as easier to shoot?

With this in mind what is it you are looking for?

groups/shots seem to move specifically following the recoil pattern

it seems like in field conditions these issues are much more severe, with groups opening up significantly

Yes, recoil management with this gun is weird. It doesn’t recoil straight into my shoulder, it is very jumpy.

 

[ssimo]

From the quoted parts below it sounds like you’ve answered your own question.
Also sounds like maybe a significant setup difference from your other guns, ie is ring height or stock geometry significantly different? Sounds like it. 308 isnt what I want to shoot 100 rounds in a sitting, but in an 11lb gun I would not characterize it as “harsh”. Its hard to imagine an 11lb 308 being so difficult to manage, it sounds like you are more in 300rum territory. But what you are describing is exactly what youd expect when dealing with a higher recoiling gun, and when dealing with field vs range. Combine the two, and its awfully noticeable.

Which manners stock is this gun in, and what are the guns/stocks that you are comparing to as easier to shoot?

With this in mind what is it you are looking for?

Stock geometry is pretty different with a manners eh4 in comparison to my bergara b14 hunter and i can see this stock is less sticky and more slippery. Ring height is the same but the cheekweld is noticeably more natural with the b14. If I have to stay under this custom rifle for a few seconds i start feeling like the chinweld is less comfortable and stable/repeatable. I tried to out some taper
With some socks and make a diy cheek riser and the rifle felt much better and more solid, being able to rest my cheek on the stock and along the eyes better. I never tried to shoot with the cheek riser tough. Could this make so much difference in recoil management?

With the old rifle i was also shooting a signficiantly lighter load (780 m/s vs 820), both 165 grains

 

[huntnful]

IMO your gun doesn’t shoot as good as you want to think it does. No fliers no nothing. It’s probably a 1.5” gun that shoots the occasional small group and you want to think that it’s “normal”. If the barrel is floated and the action is bedded, that’s just how your gun shoots.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

IMO your gun doesn’t shoot as good as you want to think it does. No fliers no nothing. It’s probably a 1.5” gun that shoots the occasional small group and you want to think that it’s “normal”. If the barrel is floated and the action is bedded, that’s just how your gun shoots.

Agreed.

 

[Macintosh]

@ssimo : Bingo. Found it.

 

[atmat]

I would have someone else shoot it. My gut tells me that it’s operator error.

However, if you’ve had consistency with other rifles and this thing really does actually shoot 9 very precise bullets with 1 way out of precision, then perhaps something is wrong with it.

An 11lb .308 isn’t a particularly hard recoiling rifle. But you also said you lose sight picture which has me thinking it’s you.

If other shooters have the same problem, then I’d go through the easy checklist of things: free float, bedding, re-torquing and nail polishing screws, etc. If you still have the same issue, send it back to the builder.

I will say that anecdotally, it seems folks have way more problems with “custom” guns than off the shelf quality rifles.

 

[grfox92]

I would have someone else shoot it. My gut tells me that it’s operator error.

However, if you’ve had consistency with other rifles and this thing really does actually shoot 9 very precise bullets with 1 way out of precision, then perhaps something is wrong with it.

An 11lb .308 isn’t a particularly hard recoiling rifle. But you also said you lose sight picture which has me thinking it’s you.

If other shooters have the same problem, then I’d go through the easy checklist of things: free float, bedding, re-torquing and nail polishing screws, etc. If you still have the same issue, send it back to the builder.

I will say that anecdotally, it seems folks have way more problems with “custom” guns than off the shelf quality rifles.

You couldn't bind the bolt on my Tikkas and M70 no matter how hard you try. $6k custom r700 actions seem to bind pretty easily. Feeding issues accuracy issues with custom barrels. I just dont understand why people go that route.

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