What Am I missing? Custom Gun build VS Pre Fit.

cjaviator said:
Not yet. And the Hawkins stuff hasn’t shipped I can probably still cancel it, for sure would be easier.


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You've got a ton of options. Do a little more research and ask questions, there's more than a few guys here that will steer you in the right direction.
 
I agree with weiserBucks perspective on the subject. For me, I would rather have a skilled craftsman dial in my barrel and cut the chamber. I believe there is something to be said still about putting your name on a piece of work. That's the part of this country I still believe in. To Kurts86 point, yeah cnc machines will do it perfect as well. But who will say that reamer is too dull for another cutting first? However, I only know two guys who have had Proof prefits, and they are satisfied, both sub minute rifles.
I recently sent a Proof blank, action dummy round specs and brake to Spartan Rifles and I think the lead time was 3 weeks.
 
Bugholes will make you a shouldered prefit out of any barrel brand in their inventory for many custom actions. Their work is solid. Pretty sure the only $20/hr guy there , if all goes well, is the owner. Lol.
 
@wapitibob , that's probably the best cf wrapped barrel and recommended by the gunsmith I send my stuff to. The only reason I didn't go with Bartlein is weight. But I believe they make a superior barrel, and R5 has shown benefits over conventional rifleing. Question though...you said a Bartlein prefit 7prc and chambering done by SnowyMountan? What am I missing here?
 
Mag_7s said:
For me, I would rather have a skilled craftsman dial in my barrel and cut the chamber. I believe there is something to be said still about putting your name on a piece of work. That's the part of this country I still believe in. To Kurts86 point, yeah cnc machines will do it perfect as well. But who will say that reamer is too dull for another cutting first?
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If you are doing thousands of barrels you should know your tool life quite exactly by caliber. Your You have a tool changer with dozens of shots and you can keep multiple reamers on at a given time. You have probably put in a lot of time picking the exact metallurgy/geometry/coatings to improve tool life. You have to volume to justify building go/no go gauges for tools, to scan it with a fero arm, CMM, etc. The finished part should have 100% inspection with critical to quality inspections. This is how successful domestic manufacturers operate somewhat independently of volume. Even the smaller barrel guys have multiple cnc machines.
 
I have not toured every prefit barrel factory, nor have I talked to people that claim to have. I used to shoot barrels by a particular prefit company (not Proof). My gunsmith also happened to be sponsored by them and toured the factory. They did not indicate the bore to the accuracy a top smith will or by the same method. Once having had this discussion, I bought a testing borescope and cleaned and examined the throat in all of said prefits. The ones that shot good and weren't picky had concentric looking throats. The ones that were very picky and didn't shoot as well has VISIBLY crooked throats where the start of each land was offset. These barrels are 1/2 the price of a prefit done to my specs by my gunsmith, so I continued to use them for high volume stuff where good enough accuracy was acceptable.

The barrels I had chambered and threaded by my gunsmith (even when using blanks from the above mfg) have all been very easy to load for. They shoot everything that isn't overdressed into 3/8 groups for 5 shots at 100 yards. (since most still use that as the standard comparison metric). All the chambers look straight. He indicates the bore with a long stem indicator until in run 0, so the bore should be as concentric as the accuracy of his indicator unless something causes the reamer to run wonky. I have now had 7 barrels from him and all have shot great with ZERO load development. You can literally see the difference in components quality when shooting his barrels. Good lots of Berger and it shoots like a benchrest gun. Groups open up with great Hornady/average Berger lots, average Hornady lots, and bad Hornady lots. So far, I haven't found a lot of Bergers that shoot bad.

It is possible that proof indicates the bore of every barrel with a long stem indicator. The pride in outcome situation still applies. I have heard a lot of good things about Proof prefits from average skill level match shooters. I also know a couple guys that can put 5 bullets in a single hole at 100 yards that refuse to even use their barrel blanks due to bad experiences (in Proof's defense, I don't think they ever used CS, just went back to what was working before).

I have had discussions with Josh at PVA online about indicating. He said it is something they refuse to compromise on, and he is trying to figure out a way to be price competitive with the prefit companies like Criterion, and still put out a chamber that is indicated to .0001" so it will shoot to his standards. He said that was the time bottleneck that prevented him from being price competitive with them.

Based on that, I assume, if the price for the prefit is much cheaper than a PVA, they probably aren't being indicated for concentricity in the same manner.

There are always compromises. Many one man shops have long lead times and are bad at giving accurate lead times. If you look around, you will find a few shops that are good at giving accurate lead times and do exceptional work.
 
ddowning said:
I have not toured every prefit barrel factory, nor have I talked to people that claim to have. I used to shoot barrels by a particular prefit company (not Proof). My gunsmith also happened to be sponsored by them and toured the factory. They did not indicate the bore to the accuracy a top smith will or by the same method. Once having had this discussion, I bought a testing borescope and cleaned and examined the throat in all of said prefits. The ones that shot good and weren't picky had concentric looking throats. The ones that were very picky and didn't shoot as well has VISIBLY crooked throats where the start of each land was offset. These barrels are 1/2 the price of a prefit done to my specs by my gunsmith, so I continued to use them for high volume stuff where good enough accuracy was acceptable.

The barrels I had chambered and threaded by my gunsmith (even when using blanks from the above mfg) have all been very easy to load for. They shoot everything that isn't overdressed into 3/8 groups for 5 shots at 100 yards. (since most still use that as the standard comparison metric). All the chambers look straight. He indicates the bore with a long stem indicator until in run 0, so the bore should be as concentric as the accuracy of his indicator unless something causes the reamer to run wonky. I have now had 7 barrels from him and all have shot great with ZERO load development. You can literally see the difference in components quality when shooting his barrels. Good lots of Berger and it shoots like a benchrest gun. Groups open up with great Hornady/average Berger lots, average Hornady lots, and bad Hornady lots. So far, I haven't found a lot of Bergers that shoot bad.

It is possible that proof indicates the bore of every barrel with a long stem indicator. The pride in outcome situation still applies. I have heard a lot of good things about Proof prefits from average skill level match shooters. I also know a couple guys that can put 5 bullets in a single hole at 100 yards that refuse to even use their barrel blanks due to bad experiences (in Proof's defense, I don't think they ever used CS, just went back to what was working before).

I have had discussions with Josh at PVA online about indicating. He said it is something they refuse to compromise on, and he is trying to figure out a way to be price competitive with the prefit companies like Criterion, and still put out a chamber that is indicated to .0001" so it will shoot to his standards. He said that was the time bottleneck that prevented him from being price competitive with them.

Based on that, I assume, if the price for the prefit is much cheaper than a PVA, they probably aren't being indicated for concentricity in the same manner.

There are always compromises. Many one man shops have long lead times and are bad at giving accurate lead times. If you look around, you will find a few shops that are good at giving accurate lead times and do exceptional work.
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Great post.

What seems to be getting lost in the shuffle is that a prefit done by the right people can have just as much care taken to indicate and chamber a barrel. There should be no difference in the chambering job compared to one fit to a specific action, maybe the thread fit isn't quite as tight? To the OPs point, if I sent a Lone Peak action to PVA, TS Customs, Beanland, etc i wouldn't expect a different accuracy result than if I had the same shops make a pre-fit for me to torque on. The OP's question should be more based upon the ODDS of any given pre-fit supplier providing a good barrel compared to a specific gunsmith fitting a barrel to an action.

Worth noting that my two worst barrels were done by rokslide touted 1 man gunsmiths with premium blanks, fitted to my action. I've had a spotless record with a particular bigger shop with employees and on prefits.

Seems to be a lot of AI and DT barrels that hammer but are "prefit".
 
Some experiments were done on benchrest barrels where a top quality shouldered barrel had a good shooting load worked up that would be competitive in short range benchrest. Then it was changed from shouldered to a barrel nut - there was no change in accuracy. So the presence of a nut isn’t a concern.

However, as others have said, the care and technique in chambering is what will sort out the good shooting barrels from the great ones.

I like Wind Gypsy’s way of looking at it in terms of odds. To get a gun that consistently keeps 5 shots under 1/2 moa with factory loads, I’m guessing you have a 51% chance. Not that there’s anything wrong with your choices, it’s just not guaranteed. That’s assuming the other variables like bedding, shooting and ammo are spot on. I’m optimistic it will be a good shooting gun and you’ll love it - 80% chance it will keep everything under 3/4 moa and 90% it is less than 1 moa.

We usually see pictures of the best shooting barrels or one’s with serious problems, rather than a representative cross section.

I’m in the same boat - there is a barrel I’m dying to shoot because it has the potential to be anywhere in that 1/2 moa to 1 moa range - all we can do is hope for the best.
 
cjaviator said:
Ok.... So here is the build. Everything Below is ordered.

Action- Loan Peak Arms Fuzion TI
Barrel- Proof Prefit Carbon sendero 22"
Stock- Manners -LRH
Trigger- Trigger Tech Special
Bottom Metal- Hawkins DBM Hunter
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That will be a pretty sweet rifle. Make sure you post some pics when ya get it all together.
 
ID_Matt said:
You can do a hawkins hunter bottom with the mini chassis.
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Manners miraculously had the exact stock I wanted on the shelf spec'd for a lone peak action and proof sendero contour with everything except the mini chasis and lone peak actions thinks there is a good possibility that they will have enough actions in the batch they are currently working on to have my action to me in a little over a month. With a 4-6 month lead time at manners id rather just have the chassis bedded, thats what they recommend according to the lady I talked to on the phone anyway.

I have a hunt in April I'd love to take this gun on.
 
cjaviator said:
Manners miraculously had the exact stock I wanted on the shelf spec'd for a lone peak action and proof sendero contour with everything except the mini chasis and lone peak actions thinks there is a good possibility that they will have enough actions in the batch they are currently working on to have my action to me in a little over a month. With a 4-6 month lead time at manners id rather just have the chassis bedded, thats what they recommend according to the lady I talked to on the phone anyway.

I have a hunt in April I'd love to take this gun on.
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Perfect!! I was just clarifying that if you did have the mini chassis, the hunter dbm is still an option. A good bedded stock is my pick as well. Saves weight!
 
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