What a Recovering Mule Deer Herd Looks Like

[robby denning]

In the punk rock mule deer podcast I think they said 50% of fawns establish a new migration route within one year of leaving their mothers. I assume that also means potential for pioneering new or unoccupied territory. I don't know but 50% sounds like pretty high rates and rapid expansion to new areas.

can't remember the %, but yes, and we chatted about that briefly. Not sure there's enough data to show those punk rockers are moving into that vacated habitat or shacking up with deer already on other ranges. I'm sure there's more to this than what they know

 

[robby denning]

I haven't listened to that one, looks like I've got something to listen to at lunch tomorrow.

let us know if you catch the percentage. It's been a few years since that podcast.

 

[king402]

Good discussion

(I don't need to set anybody straight, and I don't do any of this to say I told anyone so.)

I can’t answer for each specific unit that you present, but with the statewide numbers reflecting lots of different herds experiencing different increase and decreases, where do you think the tag numbers from 2023 at 65K should be now?

*edited my post to clarify my question plus I kind of sounded like an a hole the first time lolT

Good discussion

(I don't need to set anybody straight, and I don't do any of this to say I told anyone so.)

I can’t answer for each specific unit that you present, but with the statewide numbers reflecting lots of different herds experiencing different increase and decreases, where do you think the tag numbers from 2023 at 65K should be now?

*edited my post to clarify my question plus I kind of sounded like an a hole the first time lol

Thanks for the edit. My intention wasn't to ruffle your feathers. I really am hoping you're right and I'm wrong with Division management strategies across the west. 2 of my really good friends are some of the top level biologists in Utah. I am grateful for all the time and effort biologist put into studies, data, research, etc. to manage deer herds. I've talked to Gary Fralick in WY on the phone and I get his email updates. These biologists are some of the best! I listen to as many podcasts as I can find to learn from these biologists and other experts. The work the Monteith Shop is doing is incredible!

In answer to your question, Robby, I would hope that tag numbers would still be fairly close to the 2023 allocation numbers. The significant increase in tags in a short 2 years since the devastating winter says to me that the Division not only thinks the herd has recovered but is doing exceptionally well. I don't see WY rushing to increase their tag numbers so quickly. Just a bit frustrated with the way UT is managing tag increases.

My OP was referencing hunters not believing what the "Divisions put out" comment. I'm just trying to wrap my head around their justifications in tag increases. I wish the Division didn't make such drastic tag changes from season to season.....makes it easier to believe the theory a lot of hunters like to use that "all the Division cares about is making more money". I'm not sure that is the case but large tag increases makes it more believable. Hence, I really hope that 3, 4 , 5 years down the road I can look back and see how wrong I am.

Thanks for using your podcast platform to help us learn from experts who are dealing with these issues everyday!

 

[idelkslayer]

can't remember the %, but yes, and we chatted about that briefly. Not sure there's enough data to show those punk rockers are moving into that vacated habitat or shacking up with deer already on other ranges. I'm sure there's more to this than what they know

I just pulled it from the rokcast description for that episode, otherwise I wouldn't remember either.

"Fifty percent of the fawns had established a new migration route within a year of leaving their mothers. She calls these little rebels “Punk Rock Mule Deer”"

Punk Rock Mule Deer - Rokslide

Researcher Rhiannon Jakopak tracked fawn migration in the Wy. Range. Half of these punk rock mule deer established new migration routes vs. mom

www.rokslide.com

 

[Customweld]

So, it sounds like 50 percent of these deer are finding or taking alternate migration routes. But are they migrating to and from the same destinations? If they are just using different routes to the same winter and summer grounds, that is still possibly leaving under utilized habitat.
@robby denning, you used a term "coffee shop biology". I think that is one of the most accurate terms used when it comes down to the mentality of the typical hunter. Heck, I'm guilty of it as well. I also think this is where a lot of our legislators are getting their ideas.


Folks grow up with what they are taught, and even Rhiannon went in to her study with preconceived knowledge that all fawns do what mom teaches them. If hunters never venture out of what dad and grandpa taught them, they are going to have a hard time believing what some college know-it-all is saying.
I'm not saying that what our dad's or mentors taught us is wrong, but there is a phenomenal amount of new science out that isn't being broadcast to the larger hunter population. I know you can lead a horse to water but getting him to drink is another thing, but game departments need to be trying to get this info out into the hunter world.
Also, there are a bunch of little nuggets in these podcasts that lend themselves well to hunting mule deer. Many thanks for that!

 

[robby denning]

....you used a term "coffee shop biology". I think that is one of the most accurate terms used when it comes down to the mentality of the typical hunter. Heck, I'm guilty of it as well. I also think this is where a lot of our legislators are getting their ideas

Folks grow up with what they are taught, and even Rhiannon went in to her study with preconceived knowledge that all fawns do what mom teaches them. If hunters never venture out of what dad and grandpa taught them, they are going to have a hard time believing what some college know-it-all is saying.
I'm not saying that what our dad's or mentors taught us is wrong, but there is a phenomenal amount of new science out that isn't being broadcast to the larger hunter population. I know you can lead a horse to water but getting him to drink is another thing, but game departments need to be trying to get this info out into the hunter world.
Also, there are a bunch of little nuggets in these podcasts that lend themselves well to hunting mule deer. Many thanks for that!

you are welcome

and me, too. I try and remember that I'm just a hunter with a sample size of one. Common sense does go a long way but not all they way when it comes to game management. The legislators over-ruling F&G scares me. One time they did it with loosening up hunting restrictions with wolves and I was happy, then I thought more about it and decided not to go down that road again.

Legislatures over-ruling F&G is as bad (maybe worse?) than ballot box biology.

oh, and the new "coffee shop" is the Instagram comments section, lol!

 

[robby denning]

Thanks for the edit. My intention wasn't to ruffle your feathers. I really am hoping you're right and I'm wrong with Division management strategies across the west. 2 of my really good friends are some of the top level biologists in Utah. I am grateful for all the time and effort biologist put into studies, data, research, etc. to manage deer herds. I've talked to Gary Fralick in WY on the phone and I get his email updates. These biologists are some of the best! I listen to as many podcasts as I can find to learn from these biologists and other experts. The work the Monteith Shop is doing is incredible!

In answer to your question, Robby, I would hope that tag numbers would still be fairly close to the 2023 allocation numbers. The significant increase in tags in a short 2 years since the devastating winter says to me that the Division not only thinks the herd has recovered but is doing exceptionally well. I don't see WY rushing to increase their tag numbers so quickly. Just a bit frustrated with the way UT is managing tag increases.

My OP was referencing hunters not believing what the "Divisions put out" comment. I'm just trying to wrap my head around their justifications in tag increases. I wish the Division didn't make such drastic tag changes from season to season.....makes it easier to believe the theory a lot of hunters like to use that "all the Division cares about is making more money". I'm not sure that is the case but large tag increases makes it more believable. Hence, I really hope that 3, 4 , 5 years down the road I can look back and see how wrong I am.

Thanks for using your podcast platform to help us learn from experts who are dealing with these issues everyday!

no ruffle taken.

All I can say on tag numbers statewide is this:

If UT has done anything right, it's DAU (zones, whatever we want to call it) approach to managing herds vs just units.

I don't look at the statewide #s any more than what were they historically (250K late '80s, to 80K now) as that's a trendline reflective across the West, but I'd look at the DAUs as they're all experiencing different trends on different years (drought, winter, hunting season success rates up or down due to weather).

The sum of them all isn't that telling to me. It's the individual DAUs like you pointed out.

 

[NickStew]

Thanks for getting interviews like this available to a bigger audience! Very helpful to hear what research they’re doing in Wyoming and what they’re learning from it.

During the interview I was wondering this though: How helpful are habitat improvement projects for the health of mule deer herds? If the mule deer are adjusting to the habitat changes (drought, winter kill, fires, carrying capacity of the land) do projects like bitterbrush plantings actually help or hurt these herds?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[k.mason.turl]

This was an excellent podcast! Very informative!