Western Mountaineering/Feathered Friends Fails?

[Lucas B]

I have a Brooks Range hunt booked for this August and an upgrade to the old sleeping bag is the last item in my gear closet that I am looking to upgrade. I keep coming back to just buying from one of these two companies.

I am continually intrigued by the hard nosed positions taken by these two companies have taken in not adopting down treatments but throughout all of the forum stalking that I have done I have yet to hear of anyone actually having a water related problem with either of these brands. I would like to hear of anyone's experiences with a sleeping bag from one of these companies in which the bag got soaked from rain or condensation and then just wouldn't function when needed.

 

[ljalberta]

EE moved away from treated down to only untreated. I have bags in treated and untreated down and I have jackets in treated and untreated down.

Based on my experiences and uses, my preference is for untreated down in bags and for for treated down in jacked.

I haven’t personally had a bag go flat. But I have had my untreated down jacket flatten completely. But it was soaked for over 6 hours of hiking. I’m not sure how the untreated down would have performed. But it took awhile for it to dry out after that.

You should check our Robby’s test of the WM and Kuiu bags to see how they faired for water performance.

 

[Matt G.]

Stone glacier has a rewarming test video. It is extreme with the guys jumping in ice cold River with full clothes on. How long would it take to get warm.? If you are soaked going into bag, would untreated down still work? If you were in back country and you slipped crossing steam ? I am in same boat looking and understanding.

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[Lucas B]

I am pretty sure that I have watched every marketing and test video available. Even amongst the collective I cant see the real truth of the matter. Robby's test is a legitimate comparison and I found it useful. However, it still doesnt really address what happens when that bag is exposed to 10 straight days of high humidity after it is 3 years old and the shell DWR has deteriorated.

If you talk to WM over the phone they will tell you that they have done field testing with jackets and bags in which they stuffed every other baffle with DWR treated down. They found no difference in performance. I haven't found any documentation of that little experiment nor any further detailing of the way they tested.

WM and feathered friends both make bag geometries that I think I would like and that's why I keep coming back to them.

 

[Matt G.]

Robby did a good job on normal conditions where the outside of bag could get wet from outside either by rain dew fog or wet packpack. If it doesn't penetrate the outerlayer, it won't get wet. If moisture is coming from inside from wet clothes would that moisture escape without wetting down the down if the down is not treated?

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[Lucas B]

I agree that his demonstration was very pragmatic. I'm hopeful that someone has done something similar with the lighter face fabric.

I have spent all of my time hunting NM and CO. Excessive moisture just hasn't been a problem for me there. I have spent the last 7 years running a $170 dollar REI 20° down bag and honestly never needed more, even down into temps below that rating. It has lost some loft over the years though.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

This past summer I spent several weeks in my WM MegaLite. This was in a hammock and tarp. There was multiple rain storms every day. Each day’s humidity levels were higher than Kodiak’s.

One day the foot of the bag was directly exposed to a huge storm that dumped several inches of rain. Got back a couple of hours after the storm. So the foot of the bag was directly exposed to 2+ inches of rain and then 2+ hours of soak time.

The top half of the foot did soak through. I literally poured the water out and the bottom half of the foot was completely dry. Hopped in and went to sleep. It was dry when I woke up.

This unplanned exposure was significantly more extreme that any documented test that I have seen. The bag did exceptionally well especially given the circumstances.

WM’s shell material has the same or better hydrostatic head ratings than several respected tents.

A quality down bag or garment will wick away moisture. A low quality down bag or garment will not wick away moisture. Old Slumberjack bag would get soaked and I’d freeze no matter the temperatures. Never experienced that with either of my WM bags.

 

[JeffRaines]

The way I see it - if the big names(FF/WM) aren’t using hydrophobic down then I don’t see a reason to use it either.

When it comes to making down bags these brands are the experts… why doubt them?

 

[Matt G.]

The way I see it - if the big names(FF/WM) aren’t using hydrophobic down then I don’t see a reason to use it either.

When it comes to making down bags these brands are the experts… why doubt them?

Then a new company comes in and challenges Status quo....we could hunt in flannel and blue jeans but sitka, kuiu, and others others made it lighter, more functional and fashionable. That is why we ask the questions. Whatever sleeping bag is bought, it is an investment and potential life saver pending where you are.

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[JeffRaines]

Then a new company comes in and challenges Status quo....we could hunt in flannel and blue jeans but sitka, kuiu, and others others made it lighter, more functional and fashionable. That is why we ask the questions. Whatever sleeping bag is bought, it is an investment and potential life saver pending where you are.

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While I get where you’re going with it, the experts in this case have both tested and verified that hydrophobic down didn’t give much - if any - advantages so it isn’t like they stuck their heads in the sand when it came around.

Another thing - mountaineering brands had been creating the same kind of clothing options for years before Sitka/Kuiu came along and slapped their name on it and marketed it as hunting clothing. They’re hardly innovators.

 

[Lucas B]

AZ, I had read a previous post from you about this incident and that is actually what spurred my question. If that situation did not result in a failure of the down to loft, what does it take?

I can only presume that applied pressure is what would be needed, e.g. packing your bag away into a stuff sack while it was in that condition.

I wouldn't claim that industry leading companies are putting their heads in the sand (although there are plenty parallel examples of that happening). On a certain level it easy to conclude that nature's solution is likely best. On different level, I would like to see what happens if that SG test were replicated with un-treated down of equivalent quality.

 

[sneaky]

You could always ask yourself this: why didn't SG run a competitor's non- treated down bag side by side with theirs in that test? An independent 3rd party test could answer that in a more objective manner, someone who isn't trying to sell their bags to the public.

I'm still trying to find a duck or goose taking a bath in Nikwax. So far that's been a failure.

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[sneaky]

After use you have to realize that those hydrophobic coatings will eventually wear off and you'll be back to using the equivalent of untreated down.

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[AZ_Hunter_2000]

AZ, I had read a previous post from you about this incident and that is actually what spurred my question. If that situation did not result in a failure of the down to loft, what does it take?

I can only presume that applied pressure is what would be needed, e.g. packing your bag away into a stuff sack while it was in that condition.

I wouldn't claim that industry leading companies are putting their heads in the sand (although there are plenty parallel examples of that happening). On a certain level it easy to conclude that nature's solution is likely best. On different level, I would like to see what happens if that SG test were replicated with un-treated down of equivalent quality.

Few more hours of monsoon and soak time and complete bag exposure. Even then all is not lost.

Want to state this part right up front:
If you’re solo and the nearest help is days away (including a Super Cub drop), run a synthetic.

Otherwise the actual risks are typically lower than what we have running through our minds.

If you’re with others (applies to most of us), you can unzip a dry sleeping bag and use it as a quilt and share it. Am mature enough to not worry about any Brokeback Mountain jokes.

You can throw your puffy top and bottoms on, covered with your rain gear, and hop into the wet bag. May not be ideal but you’ll survive and start the drying out process.

 

[EJDXT21]

I'm assuming most companies use a DWR treatment on the outside for water repellency, correct me if I'm wrong, and over time after heavy use, that treatment will likely begin to lose its ability to repel water as it did when new. My question is, if you bought a bag that doesn't have treated down, how do reapply the DWR treatment to the outside without doing it to the down? I think I have seen a spray but have also seen a wash. Grangers makes a 2 in 1 wash but I'd think that would in essence treat the down as well as the outside of the bag. Question would apply to down clothes too.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

You could always ask yourself this: why didn't SG run a competitor's non- treated down bag side by side with theirs in that test? An independent 3rd party test could answer that in a more objective manner, someone who isn't trying to sell their bags to the public.

I'm still trying to find a duck or goose taking a bath in Nikwax. So far that's been a failure.

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Think quality of down, and bag material, plays a huge part. I have no doubts on SG’s quality; was on my short list when I first upgraded but went with a WM Antelope which then led to a WM MegaLite. I have no regrets on those purchases.

I’ve “baked” dry tops and pants (sweat) with my Kuiu down puffies multiple times. Intellectually I know I can dry out wet clothes if I wear them in a quality down bag. May not be the most pleasant night but I’ll be dryer than when I first hit the hay.

Had an inexpensive 20* down bag. No matter the temperature I’d wake up cold and wet. It just wouldn’t wick away moisture. I’ve not encountered that with either of my WM bags.

If my experience with down was limited to that inexpensive down bag, then I’d be an ardent proponent of synthetic. But the WM bags have changed my mind for many scenarios.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

I'm assuming most companies use a DWR treatment on the outside for water repellency, correct me if I'm wrong, and over time after heavy use, that treatment will likely begin to lose its ability to repel water as it did when new. My question is, if you bought a bag that doesn't have treated down, how do reapply the DWR treatment to the outside without doing it to the down? I think I have seen a spray but have also seen a wash. Grangers makes a 2 in 1 wash but I'd think that would in essence treat the down as well as the outside of the bag. Question would apply to down clothes too.

Great point. Would have to look at the various manufacturers’ maintenance recommendations.

Long term it’s a relatively small cost.

 

[Lucas B]

"Am mature enough to not worry about any Brokeback Mountain jokes."

Oh come on now, maturity has nothing to do with it. Making jokes about people who end up in situations like that is just plain fun....

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

"Am mature enough to not worry about any Brokeback Mountain jokes."

Oh come on now, maturity has nothing to do with it. Making jokes about people who end up in situations like that is just plain fun....

Didn’t say they wouldn’t be said. Just that I wouldn’t worry about them.

 

[Noodlestheshaman]

If polar explorers use ff/wm/insert other high end bag on Antarctica/North Pole...I believe whatever you need it for will be fine. And if not...buy a synthetic bag?