Western Mountaineering bags and moisture

[TradLife406]

I really need to upgrade my sleeping bag selection for September in Montana. Right now I have a MH 35 and a 0 synthetics. The 35 is good for about the first weekend but the last couple years it's snowed by the second or third weekend. And lugging around the 0 degree bag sucks!

I've been looking at a lot of pros and cons to going to down. My local backpacking store has a WM Versalite bag. This bag and temp rating would be about perfect for the drastic temp shifts we get. I asked the guy how they do with tent condensation and he said they're just fine. But then you talk to some people who are very reputable and they make it sound that you'll die if you go with down.

So in regards to the Versalite or maybe a 15 degree Wind Stopper bag from WM how are they with a little moisture? I have a Hilleberg Atko which is bad for condensation. Is this a bad idea?

What about climbing into a WM bag with wet clothes like in a rewarming drill? After last year I totally redid my clothing system so I "shouldn't" get wet but just curious.

I see WH bags don't use treated down. But they use a DWR finish and offer Gore Wind Stopper on a few which should help, right?

Would I need to get a UL breathable bivy like a Ti Goat Kestrel?

The price on those bags is bad, but a 10 degree bag that's 2lb is great!

Thanks

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[Sverimerica]

I really need to upgrade my sleeping bag selection for September in Montana. Right now I have a MH 35 and a 0 synthetics. The 35 is good for about the first weekend but the last couple years it's snowed by the second or third weekend. And lugging around the 0 degree bag sucks!

I've been looking at a lot of pros and cons to going to down. My local backpacking store has a WM Versalite bag. This bag and temp rating would be about perfect for the drastic temp shifts we get. I asked the guy how they do with tent condensation and he said they're just fine. But then you talk to some people who are very reputable and they make it sound that you'll die if you go with down.

So in regards to the Versalite or maybe a 15 degree Wind Stopper bag from WM how are they with a little moisture? I have a Hilleberg Atko which is bad for condensation. Is this a bad idea?

What about climbing into a WM bag with wet clothes like in a rewarming drill? After last year I totally redid my clothing system so I "shouldn't" get wet but just curious.

I see WH bags don't use treated down. But they use a DWR finish and offer Gore Wind Stopper on a few which should help, right?

Would I need to get a UL breathable bivy like a Ti Goat Kestrel?

The price on those bags is bad, but a 10 degree bag that's 2lb is great!

Thanks

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I had similar concerns as well. But digging around on rokslide I have found that pretty much every user of WM bags is very satisfied. Additionally, I think you will find that most dont have a problem keeping their down bags dry. Some use a bivy, some dont. Personally I feel that a bivy is redundant under any type of shelter, but if the condensation is so bad that your bag is wetting out, you need a different shelter setup. I wish I could afford the versalite. Have yet to see a bad review on it.

Basically, think of this : have you ever soaked your sleeping bag? If the answer is no, you should probably be fine. Some drops of water wont make it into the down. But submersing the bag or cowboy camping in a rain storm would. You should go for that bag, it sounds like it would be excellent for varying conditions

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[Sverimerica]

Kifaru vs WM

Wet down: I got into a hell of an argument years ago with a guy who basically proclaimed anyone using a down bag on goat, sheep and nasty-weather hunts was a complete fool. I think he considered 'down......

Check out that post. I dont know Kevin, but he has alot of experience and this is just one of many on here who feels totally fine bringing down on fly in hunt in Alaska


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[3forks]

There's a reason WM offers more durable and water/wind resistant fabrics on some of their bags, but I think the Versalite is a great option for people in the Western US.

I use a floorless Dyneema shelter and condensation isn't an issue with my Versalite. Here's a pic and a couple of videos of the water repellency of the Versalite's fabric.

View attachment 74815

[video=youtube_share;2IKK41iImfU]https://youtu.be/2IKK41iImfU[/video]

[video=youtube_share;SjrPQ96KQfk]https://youtu.be/SjrPQ96KQfk[/video]

You can literally pour water in a divot in the Versalite, and pour the same amount of water out of the divot 30 minutes later. I haven't waited for more than 30 minutes to see if water would be absorbed into the down, or can answer whether wind driven rain would have more of an affect on the fabric's water repellency - but I wouldn't be too worried about it.

 

[JFKinYK]

This is a few years old, but still an interesting read

Western Mountaineering on water resistant down and Pertex fabric - Backpacking Light

 

[White Mamba]

If my tent had a big hole in it or I was rafting down rivers with rapids where my bag could get submerged for a long time I might worry about down. Keep your bag in a coated sil bag and youll be fine. Like 3forks said, most fabrics now are water resistant. Ive woke up in a few puddles and the foot of my bag sticking out a floorless shelter in the rain and never had a issue.

 

[BroodBuster]

When conditions allow I like to “cowboy” camp. When I do this the outside of my bag will be pretty wet in the morning. If it gets cold enough I’ll wake up to a thin layer of ice on my bag. It’s kinda cool to see how well the WM bags transfer moisture inside out and I’ve never had an issue with the down getting wet or even noticed how wet the outside of my bag is getting while sleeping. It dries really quickly too when hung in the sun.

 

[AustinL911]

Are WM bag rated to their comfort temp or keep-you-alive temp?

 

[bcimport]

Marketing swings back and forth between down and synthetic every couple of years, I think mostly to keep guys buying new stuff. Lots of us in wet country (BC and Alaska) use down every year without a problem. I run a down puffy and a down quilt, a little common sense goes a long way. Look at the true high end mountaineering pursuits and see what they’re using, not the people looking to be famous or sponsored but the people who are getting out a lot. You’ll see a lot of down getting used. Hunting really isn’t some revolutionary outdoor pursuit with way different demands than many other outdoor activities. If you’re not careful with your equipment maybe synthetic is for you.

 

[Owenst7]

Are WM bag rated to their comfort temp or keep-you-alive temp?

WM bags are very conservatively rated. Most will find them comfortable well below the claimed rating. WM leads the industry in quality and has for decades. They are also one of the few comparable products made in USA.

There's a statement put there from them that their testing showed treated down to be a gimmick. My experience agrees. I question if it would negatively impact loft also.

I grew up hunting Alaska and have never soaked a bag other than dumping my canoe in whitewater. Being dilligent with quality dry bags solves that problem. If youre in weather warm enough to be concerned about rain, the weight savings of down may be minimal enough to consider synthetic. I choose to focus on a proper shelter (I use a floorless) and be neurotic about staying dry (a habit from hunting Alaska for decades).

Climbing in a bag with wet clothes on is dumb. I've been on plenty of backpack hunts in southcentral AK and the only time I've seen someone need to do that is after a long series of bad decisions, and climbing in their bag wearing wet clothes was just following that pattern. Sling the water out of your clothes and hang them (in your tarp if it's raining) and climb in your bag naked. If you're using proper clothing for the climate like polyester fleece, it will probably be dry after slinging it around anyway. Soaking the last dry insulation you have seems like the thinking of a hypothermic person that isn't thinking clearly.

 

[Sverimerica]

WM bags are very conservatively rated. Most will find them comfortable well below the claimed rating. WM leads the industry in quality and has for decades. They are also one of the few comparable products made in USA.

There's a statement put there from them that their testing showed treated down to be a gimmick. My experience agrees. I question if it would negatively impact loft also.

I grew up hunting Alaska and have never soaked a bag other than dumping my canoe in whitewater. Being dilligent with quality dry bags solves that problem. If youre in weather warm enough to be concerned about rain, the weight savings of down may be minimal enough to consider synthetic. I choose to focus on a proper shelter (I use a floorless) and be neurotic about staying dry (a habit from hunting Alaska for decades).

Climbing in a bag with wet clothes on is dumb. I've been on plenty of backpack hunts in southcentral AK and the only time I've seen someone need to do that is after a long series of bad decisions, and climbing in their bag wearing wet clothes was just following that pattern. Sling the water out of your clothes and hang them (in your tarp if it's raining) and climb in your bag naked. If you're using proper clothing for the climate like polyester fleece, it will probably be dry after slinging it around anyway. Soaking the last dry insulation you have seems like the thinking of a hypothermic person that isn't thinking clearly.

Interesting. I just completed a maritime safety course and we had a large module on hypothermia. The US coast guard absolutely teaches to remove any wet clothing, wool or not and being in something dry, like you say. I mentioned to the instructor the idea that is propagated here, and on the Sitka video about putting on an insulating layer while still wearing their wet clothing. That is absolutely NOT recommended, just as you say. Just wanted to weigh in at least on what is taught per the coast guard, lines up with what you are saying as well.

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[AXEL]

I have spent 60+ years in the bush of BC and Alberta, BCFS, AFS, CCG*and so on. I have used-owned most of the big name bags, MMW, Pioneer, Fairey, FF, Integral Designs, WM and others, including a Shocking Blue.

I have four synthetic bags and three down bags, one a custom ID winter bag and two WMs. I much prefer down and have solo camped in BC wilderness in every month of the year, rain, snow, wind, whatever. I use the synthetics for specific situations, but, prefer my WM Terralite*and Sequoia bags for 90% of what, at 72, I am still capable of doing.

To wear any wet clothing into ANY bag ANYTIME is NOT a wise idea, IMHO and I prefer to sleep in a very light base layer even in high summer......keeps bugs from my elderly hide when out for *P time*.

I prefer Valandre and WM down bags from what is currently available and would love a custom sack from PHD, but, cannot justify the $$$$$$$ at this time of my life.

 

[MT_Wyatt]

I’ve literally had to do the wet clothes in sleeping bag routine - got caught away from my camp without a shell (which was dumb) and rolled into my camp soaked and really cold. Raining too hard for me to build a fire so I wrong my clothes out and jumped in my treated down quilt. I stayed in that thing until the weather broke - I didn’t completely dry in that time but made substantial progress. So I can see some merit in the rewarming drill you guys mention, for specific circumstances. Not sure you can entirely discount the idea of it.


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[bcimport]

I can see in an absolute worst case scenario that the get in your synthetic bag wet with all your clothes on strategy could work, especially where you may need to jump out and start shooting to save your life in short order. However, I don't think even the government research would say that you warm up faster doing that than getting out of your wet clothes and then getting into the bag (as the coast guard course above mentions). Your entire clothing system will be dryer sooner if you do the rewarming drill and make you able to function comfortable sooner. Just know your equipment, use your head and have fun.

 

[AKDoc]

I switched over to down sleeping bags six years ago with the reservations that you are voicing. That said, I'm so glad that I did...so much lighter and compressible, and very comfortable sleeping. My down bags are not the WM that you referenced, but that video in this thread is pretty impressive.

Just to give some context for my support of down bags, I've lived up here in Alaska for the past thirty years, and we are well known for our wet and cold wx...not a good combination for down bags. I'm also a very active hunter and outdoor person, who spends at least 5 to 6 weeks out of each year in a tent in very remote areas...a 3 week continuous stretch during September that requires remote fly-in/out. My down bags have never failed me...no moisture concerns of any kind. I do carry a Thermolite Reactor (extreme) just in case for the September hunt, but I have never needed it. I also transport my sleeping bag in a waterproof compression bag.

I do ensure that the tents I bring have adequate venting designs, so internal condensation has never been a problem for me, e.g., Hilleberg Staika, KUIU Mountainstar, and SO 4-tipi with stove that off-sets condensation in that rig.

 

[unclericco]

I know this is kind of off topic but I just want to mention that I really really love my WM Badger GWS. I went on a scouting trip up north with a guide buddy of mine and slept under the stars a couple weeks ago and prior to falling asleep in my wonderful cocoon of fluffiness I just really couldn't stop smiling lol.

 

[Beendare]

There are 2 types of moisture to consider;

dripping from condensation

and moisture buildup in your bag from your body

The dripping can be managed pretty easily and moisture from your body is only a problem if it builds up in your bag.

Neither one of these is a problem for down if you take a little care.

Personally, I wouldn't own a bag with a gore tex outer shell as I give off too much moisture at night and I want as much of that to get out as possible, YMMV

I do opt for my Syn bag on some of these coastal alaskan type hunts where its difficult to dry stuff out for long periods of time.

 

[TradLife406]

Thank guys! That solved my worries! It sure will be nice to cut the weight!

Was kinda thinking about going the quilt route but I do love the security feeling of a mummy bag...

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[Gatorgrizz27]

Interesting. I just completed a maritime safety course and we had a large module on hypothermia. The US coast guard absolutely teaches to remove any wet clothing, wool or not and being in something dry, like you say. I mentioned to the instructor the idea that is propagated here, and on the Sitka video about putting on an insulating layer while still wearing their wet clothing. That is absolutely NOT recommended, just as you say. Just wanted to weigh in at least on what is taught per the coast guard, lines up with what you are saying as well.

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I don’t think the guys in here talking about sleeping in wet clothes would recommend doing it in hypothermic conditions. I think it has more to do with being warm enough, but wanting to dry your clothes out while you sleep because they wouldn’t dry just hanging in the tent without a stove.

Admittedly, sleeping in damp clothes sounds very unappealing to me, but if you’re tired enough and pop a Tylenol PM, I suppose it beats waking up naked and putting on wet 20 degree base layers to go sit on top of a mountain.

 

[TradLife406]

I don’t think the guys in here talking about sleeping in wet clothes would recommend doing it in hypothermic conditions. I think it has more to do with being warm enough, but wanting to dry your clothes out while you sleep because they wouldn’t dry just hanging in the tent without a stove.

Admittedly, sleeping in damp clothes sounds very unappealing to me, but if you’re tired enough and pop a Tylenol PM, I suppose it beats waking up naked and putting on wet 20 degree base layers to go sit on top of a mountain.

I think too (in my limited experience) your clothing system is a huge part of this. Last September I was running a system that was OK for a "normal" Montana September. I had a rain jacket and gaiters but no rain pants. Even with deep snow higher up (newbie move).

I ran down the mountain early one morning to try things where there wasn't a foot of snow. Well that night it started to drizzle a bit while I waited to ambush on the edge of a park. The wind picked up and the temp dropped then it started a rain cats and dogs and the whole farm! My rain jacket help up but my pants (FL Obsidians) were completely soaked. It was nice to be able to stuff the pants in the foot box of the sleeping bag to try and dry them out as I was spiking out from my wood stove at the top of the mountain.

But this year I'll be packing better clothes and rain pants. That way the only thing I might get wet are gloves and a hat. So I don't really see why I'd be jumping into a bag wet...

Also I upped my boots so aside from sweat my socks should stay dry.

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