Vote - MOA or MIL

[ChrisAU]

Posted this in another thread today, but this is important for gear-ho’s like myself: resale value. Go post an ad for a used ATACR in MOA then the same one in MILs and see which sells first and for more money.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Posted this in another thread today, but this is important for gear-ho’s like myself: resale value. Go post an ad for a used ATACR in MOA then the same one in MILs and see which sells first and for more money.

According to the poll, it would appear moa would sell faster....

I haven't personally seen a difference in price or speed at which something sells based on moa vs mil.

Most FFP scopes do cost more than most SFP scopes though for sure. That's another debate for another day though.

 

[realunlucky]

Posted this in another thread today, but this is important for gear-ho’s like myself: resale value. Go post an ad for a used ATACR in MOA then the same one in MILs and see which sells first and for more money.

Do you think you'll find the opposite when looking at the lower end offerings.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[ID_Matt]

Posted this in another thread today, but this is important for gear-ho’s like myself: resale value. Go post an ad for a used ATACR in MOA then the same one in MILs and see which sells first and for more money.

I think that one could go either way. High end scopes like an ATACR will likely sell better in mil since it appeals to competition shooters and hunters. Mid range scopes like $1500 and under will likely sell better in MOA. That is my assumption at least…..

 

[ChrisAU]

According to the poll, it would appear moa would sell faster....

I haven't personally seen a difference in price or speed at which something sells based on moa vs mil.

Most FFP scopes do cost more than most SFP scopes though for sure. That's another debate for another day though.

Maybe on here. But post it on snipers hide or ar15.com. But I’d bet even here there is a disparity, as some people from those sites are here just for the classifieds. The SHV F1 is easily worth more in MILs than MOA, even on here. A sizable percentage of hunters don’t care, while almost all competition shooters do, so the market size is different and ever increasing to favor MILs.

I don’t care one way or the other, just like all mine to match, and if you want to shoot Rokslide darlings like the SWFA 3-9 or Bushnell LRTS/LRHS, then MILs it is.

 

[Firestone]

I shoot both and still prefer MOA. The argument for mills that comes up everytime is every gun has a certain mph wind hold and with mills its easier to compute.

 

[Lawnboi]

For those shooting moa, how are you determining your wind hold in the field? Chart? Gun number?

 

[Lawnboi]

I shoot both and still prefer MOA. Seems like the argument for mills that comes up everytime is every gun has a certain mph wind hold. well that typically only works if the wind is blowing from 90 degrees at a certain speed. Wind switches to 270 degrees and you went from 6mph gun to 8mph gun because of spindrift. Wind is 14mph from 20 degrees instead 90 degrees? to me its a very situational tool that might come in handy 5 percent of the time. your gonna be running numbers off a dope card, app or kestrel almost everytime anyway.

It’s not hard to adjust for, and in tenths can mostly be done in my head. Mph gun is not only for full value winds.

In the last month Iv take. 250 shots at distance using wind number. It was much more effective than having a chart like Iv done previously. These winds were from anywhere from full value to none, not on a flat range, with differing shot angles making wind calling more difficult.

That said if you don’t have a tool for determining wind speed about all that is useless. Even when carrying a kestrel I use mph gun number because it’s fast. Kestrel is used solely for determining wind speed, and acclimating myself to the environment when it comes to judging wind.

See my above question. If not determining your wind hold by gun number how are you?

 

[BRTreedogs]

It’s not hard to adjust for, and in tenths can mostly be done in my head. Mph gun is not only for full value winds.

In the last month Iv take. 250 shots at distance using wind number. It was much more effective than having a chart like Iv done previously. These winds were from anywhere from full value to none, not on a flat range, with differing shot angles making wind calling more difficult.

That said if you don’t have a tool for determining wind speed about all that is useless. Even when carrying a kestrel I use mph gun number because it’s fast. Kestrel is used solely for determining wind speed, and acclimating myself to the environment when it comes to judging wind.

See my above question. If not determining your wind hold by gun number how are you?

See everyone that touts mils and gun mph shoots comp and is engaging multiple targets.

In a hunting situation were making a cold bore and maybe a follow up.
So your ranging, making a guess on wind value then looking at your dope for dial up. While I'm looking at the dial up I can look at the wind dope.

Watch impact chamber another round hold over some more or less and send another.

Its not like the initial target is 750 then we need to half the wind to shoot 375 then add 50% wind to the original call to shoot one at 1000.

I could see if you're really good that it may help in a follow up shot.
But I fail to see how it helps in a cold bore shot when your making an initial wind call then looking at your dope? But I could be missing something.

Coming from good old Kentucky windage where I used to hold 12" over the vitals moa is much more intuitive.

I spent tons money and stress tracking down a fleet of mil scopes and im not convinced I won't switch back.
I've never been to a comp and I've never talked to a comp shooter in person. And I doubt that will change.

 

[Lawnboi]

See everyone that touts mils and gun mph shoots comp and is engaging multiple targets.

In a hunting situation were making a cold bore and maybe a follow up.
So your ranging, making a guess on wind value then looking at your dope for dial up. While I'm looking at the dial up I can look at the wind dope.

Watch impact chamber another round hold over some more or less and send another.

Its not like the initial target is 750 then we need to half the wind to shoot 375 then add 50% wind to the original call to shoot one at 1000.

I could see if you're really good that it may help in a follow up shot.
But I fail to see how it helps in a cold bore shot when your making an initial wind call then looking at your dope? But I could be missing something.

Coming from good old Kentucky windage where I used to hold 12" over the vitals moa is much more intuitive.

I spent tons money and stress tracking down a fleet of mil scopes and im not convinced I won't switch back.
I've never been to a comp and I've never talked to a comp shooter in person. And I doubt that will change.

It has absolultely nothing to do with “comps”. I do both. I’m sharing what I found works for me and is much easier on my brain. I also don’t solely big game hunt. Most the shots in the above quote were at prairie dogs where I was holding anything from a tenth to over a mil of wind, from multiple angles. So it’s not like I got my wind hold and just had it figured out for the day. My goal is also to hit my first shot regardless of if I’m at a match, shooting at an animal, or just shooting paper.

The gun number allows me to have a wind chart in my brain, and adjust from there. No different than a guy looking at his dope chart for wind. Except I don’t have to look for it. So why not, if you could eliminate the wind columns from your dope chart for 5,10,15,20mph and have that information readily available by knowing one number about your gun why would you not do that. It’s faster, and it works.

Lots of guys bagging on comps and the like…. Broken record. You get better at shooting by doing more shooting. Iv always been a hunter first, and got into competitive shooting to become a better hunter.

 

[BRTreedogs]

It has absolultely nothing to do with “comps”. I do both. I’m sharing what I found works for me and is much easier on my brain. I also don’t solely big game hunt. Most the shots in the above quote were at prairie dogs where I was holding anything from a tenth to over a mil of wind, from multiple angles. So it’s not like I got my wind hold and just had it figured out for the day. My goal is also to hit my first shot regardless of if I’m at a match, shooting at an animal, or just shooting paper.

The gun number allows me to have a wind chart in my brain, and adjust from there. No different than a guy looking at his dope chart for wind. Except I don’t have to look for it. So why not, if you could eliminate the wind columns from your dope chart for 5,10,15,20mph and have that information readily available by knowing one number about your gun why would you not do that. It’s faster, and it works.

Lots of guys bagging on comps and the like…. Broken record. You get better at shooting by doing more shooting. Iv always been a hunter first, and got into competitive shooting to become a better hunter.

You're over estimating the proficiency of 90% of shooters, your assumption is they are close to your level.
I'm not bagging on comps, I want to go because I know they will make me better. I even have a rifle ready to go.
But im very introverted and am out of town 16 plus days a month.
I thought nrl was gonna be the ticket when they added the 16 pound weigh class.
Was gonna go to the one in WA but they are letting to much PRS gaming bleed over. Once I saw 1200 yards. Well that just wasting ammo at this point, I'm not gonna spend 1k for my wife and I to just go fling lead when I know I won't hit it.
So here is a typical thing I hear from most hunters that I know personally if I'm being honest (Well I bought 100 rounds of 300 rum this year that will be enough to last the rest of my life)

These types of guys are shooting big cartridges so there is low wind drift and a margin of error.
Holding over some for wind and smashing the bang switch. They are not thinking about math in any way. Most of them don't know what BC is and can barely run a calculator to get a dial up.

I'm somewhere in the middle and trying to improve, but I doubt I'll ever be able to remember my gun number once there is an animal in front of me.
So mils seems pointless.

I've already noticed while setting zeros I crank on the turret like its moa, then wonder why the hell is it clear over there now? Ohh yeah 4 clicks is 1.44 not 1.047

 

[Lawnboi]

You're over estimating the proficiency of 90% of shooters, your assumption is they are close to your level.
I'm not bagging on comps, I want to go because I know they will make me better. I even have a rifle ready to go.
But im very introverted and am out of town 16 plus days a month.
I thought nrl was gonna be the ticket when they added the 16 pound weigh class.
Was gonna go to the one in WA but they are letting to much PRS gaming bleed over. Once I saw 1200 yards. Well that just wasting ammo at this point, I'm not gonna spend 1k for my wife and I to just go fling lead when I know I won't hit it.
So here is a typical thing I hear from most hunters that I know personally if I'm being honest (Well I bought 100 rounds of 300 rum this year that will be enough to last the rest of my life)

These types of guys are shooting big cartridges so there is low wind drift and a margin of error.
Holding over some for wind and smashing the bang switch. They are not thinking about math in any way. Most of them don't know what BC is and can barely run a calculator to get a dial up.

I'm somewhere in the middle and trying to improve, but I doubt I'll ever be able to remember my gun number once there is an animal in front of me.
So mils seems pointless.

I've already noticed while setting zeros I crank on the turret like its moa, then wonder why the hell is it clear over there now? Ohh yeah 4 clicks is 1.44 not 1.047

90% of shooters out there shouldn’t be shooting at a distance they need to worry about wind… but that’s a whole other subject.

As far as comps go, they will make you a better shooter. Don’t get caught up in the prs, Benchrest barricade internet garbage. Is there some stuff that I can do with my 18lb match rifle that I can’t with my 8 point hunting gun? Of course. You need to go into it knowing that what your doing dosnt fully carry over, and vice versa. What comps do, is create pressure, pressure that dosnt replicate shooting at something alive but is as close as Iv seen being able to come. Pressure brings out flaws. Once you know your flaws you can work on them. Go to a one day match, don’t worry about what your going to hit, or what place you will take, go to be a better shooter and you will get something from it. I’m the same as you, my first half dozen matches I didn’t know a single guy I was shooting with, but it’s made me a better shooter. If that’s your goal I’d go shoot whatever you can distance and affiliation be damned. Fundamental still matter, wind matters and knowing your rifle matters…. And wouldn’t you know it all that carry’s right over to hunting.

Elevation of mils vs moa is no argument. They both work, and it’s a wash. Your problem with elevation is simply a memory based one, your accustomed to working in moa. I got rid of minute scopes all together partially for that very reason.

But when it comes to wind it’s not hard with the gun number. You could write it on your card if you really want. I can really dumb it down and cut it to full/half wind only and probably be better off in the field at reasonable ranges than trying to bust out a kestrel or looking at my dope card with 60 numbers on it. It’s very easy to learn at reasonable ranges shooting at reasonable size targets. And I think anyone looking to be a better shooter, like I think most are on here, would be doing themselves a disservice to not give it a try.

We as hunters already have our plate full when it comes time to make a shot. Find, range, dope elevation, figure out a wind call. If I can eliminate finding and looking for two numbers on my dope card that’s one less thing I need to do. On top of that adaptability isn’t only for shooting multiple targets at multiple ranges. What happens when that animal closes the distance, say 600 to 500. Can you tell me the difference in wind call from your head? Or do you need to break your position and check again.

Familiarity comes with time behind a rifle. Hunters in general I don’t think use that time effectively. I see it at the range all the time.

 

[Justin Crossley]

For those shooting moa, how are you determining your wind hold in the field? Chart? Gun number?

I do it the same way using mils and moa. Both scenarios below start with me knowing and/or estimating environmental conditions by using my Kestrel or rangefinder with built-in sensors.

Hunting - I range the animal, use the corrections given by my rangefinder, and shoot.

Comps - I use an armband and write down my adjustments and/or holds for each target prior to the time starting. Time starts and I engage the targets per my notes.

I agree competitions make you a better shooter. I know I'm a better shooter because of it. But, I think a lot of people come up with imaginary hunting situations based on things they see and hear at comps.

 

[id_jon]

I've already noticed while setting zeros I crank on the turret like its moa, then wonder why the hell is it clear over there now? Ohh yeah 4 clicks is 1.44 not 1.047

4 clicks is .4 with mils, how is that not infinitely more intuitive? Being able to count 1,2,3etc instead of .25,.5,.75etc is enough for me to prefer mils and know that I'll never switch back.

 

[Lawnboi]

I do it the same way using mils and moa. Both scenarios below start with me knowing and/or estimating environmental conditions by using my Kestrel or rangefinder with built-in sensors.

Hunting - I range the animal, use the corrections given by my rangefinder, and shoot.

Comps - I use an armband and write down my adjustments and/or holds for each target prior to the time starting. Time starts and I engage the targets per my notes.

I agree competitions make you a better shooter. I know I'm a better shooter because of it. But, I think a lot of people come up with imaginary hunting situations based on things they see and hear at comps.

So your calling wind, and plugging it into your rangefinder, basically you have an electronic dope card in the rangefinder? Or taking the reading off the kestrel?

I know shooting long range competitively dosnt fully translate, but it’s hard to argue what works. I hope nrl hunter takes off closer to home for me.

 

[Harvey_NW]

4 clicks is .4 with mils, how is that not infinitely more intuitive? Being able to count 1,2,3etc instead of .25,.5,.75etc is enough for me to prefer mils and know that I'll never switch back.

When learning scope math, again I'll reference the unit of measurement that most people have used their whole lives. .25, .5, .75 is much easier understood as quarter, half, three-quarter, and then even your grandma knows what you're talking about. You say four tenths and there's a lot of "experienced shooters" that would probably give you the deer in the headlights look. Just depends on whether you're adaptive or keen to familiarity.

 

[BRTreedogs]

4 clicks is .4 with mils, how is that not infinitely more intuitive? Being able to count 1,2,3etc instead of .25,.5,.75etc is enough for me to prefer mils and know that I'll never switch back.

Because I'm used to inches.
Need to move my zero over 1" so I give it 4 clicks thinking thats an inch.
When I now have a mil scope and its more then an inch.
Its not that its more or less intuitive it that I was raised in America on inches not a commy on mils.

 

[Lawnboi]

Because I'm used to inches.
Need to move my zero over 1" so I give it 4 clicks thinking thats an inch.
When I now have a mil scope and its more then an inch.
Its not that its more or less intuitive it that I was raised in America on inches not a commy on mils.

Shoot, measure with reticle, adjust. It’s just that simple, mils or moa.

 

[Tmac]

MOA. It’s very simple for my brain and I’ve have used it for decades. Not going to change at this point, there’d be too much automatic stuff to reprogram in my brain. I’m sure either moa or mils could work fine for me, it’s more about not reprogramming my brain.

I know the approx. size of key measurements of the game I hunt in inches. I sight in dead on or a little hi at 200, to 400 ish I use the crosshairs and hold off or over if needed. I am a hunter and stalker and in all but one shot have gotten under 400. I am prepared to dial for shots over 400, but have not needed to do so yet. I do shoot prairie dogs over 400, occasionally pop a few with my hunting rifle to stay sharp, all in moa.

 

[Cant hit em]

MOA strictly hunt and plink. After sighting in scopes for so long i just stuck with what I new