Utah Hunt Expo packstravaganza

[bcimport]

Dave, thanks for the nice write up. I've followed your blog for a couple years and really enjoy what appears to be zero brand bias commentary. You give your opinion which can be substantiated by a lot of multiple use outdoor activities. Keep it up, I hope to see you get to put your talents to work somewhere or somehow soon so the rest of us can benefit.

 

[njdoxie]

[QUOTE In spite of the unsavory associations the show is worth attending if you're in the market.[/QUOTE]



I don't understand this, what are you talking about?

And what is "summer OR"?

 

[realunlucky]

[QUOTE In spite of the unsavory associations the show is worth attending if you're in the market.

I don't understand this, what are you talking about?

And what is "summer OR"?[/QUOTE]
The Western expo is run by sportsman for wildlife who have no accountability on how that money is spent. Also the bidding process was changed last minute last year to exclude the Rocky mountain elk fountain who pledged 100 return to wildlife.
The or show is outdoor retailers show its twice a year in salt lake. They have decided to move venues to another state in opposition of public lands transfer legislation that Utah is continuing pushing

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[russ_outdoors]

[QUOTE In spite of the unsavory associations the show is worth attending if you're in the market.

I can chime in on this a little bit. The organization that runs the show (SFW) is given 200 tags to raffle off for $5.00 each, which earns roughly a $1,000,000 a year (Many people refer to these as the expo tags). For years SFW has been able to use this money as they saw fit (i.e. no specific projects, no audit, etc). These tags are different from the tags that are auctioned off at various banquets put on by different organizations throughout the state, which require 90% of the proceeds to go to approved programs with the organization keeping 10%. This concerned many sportsman in Utah (myself included) that these funds could be used for bloated salaries, hunts for friends and family, campaign donations and lobbying of state officials, land purchases for private groups, etc. Recently, after many complaints about this system the DWR changed the expo tag rule to 30% of the money going to approved projects and 70% going to basically whatever they want. Here's the explanation directly from the expo website:

The DWR must approve in advance how 30 percent of these funds are spent. Expo organizers (SFW and MDF) spend the remaining 70 percent on policies, programs, projects and personnel that support a significant number of conservation initiatives across the state of Utah. All of the $5 application fee revenue directly benefits wildlife conservation in Utah.

As always the devil is in the details. Essentially 70% of a million bucks can be spent on anything SFW and is little brother MDF want to as long as it is a "conservation initiative", whatever that means. There is no audit, no public accounting of what that money goes for. So basically SFW/MDF are given a public resource (200 tags), sell them for big money, give 30% back to the state and do whatever they want with the rest.

RMEF submitted a bid to host the show and offered to give 100% of all proceeds back to the state. Of course our DWR felt that the SWF deal was better (insert forehead slab here...). When you look at the money it makes more sense: DWR gives tags to organization with no strings, organization uses money to lobby and contribute to the campaigns of governor and some in the legislature, governor appoints wildlife board members, wildlife board chooses expo bid and oversees DWR, DWR gives tags to organization with no strings.......

Sorry for the rant. I feel better now... Actually no I don't...

 

[goodgrouper]

Davec how do the stone glacier and kifaru compare to the seek outside that you have experience with?

 

[Buglebrush]

Anyone who has used the Exo 3500 or 5500 can you comment on the pack being "tippy" as described in DaveC's comments above. How do you find it handles loads 80lbs and over ?

Hauled two elk this year in mine. Both were steep and deep, and one I had overnight gear 30#'s plus exactly half a boned out elk. Pack was fantastic!

 

[DaveC]

Davec how do the stone glacier and kifaru compare to the seek outside that you have experience with?

Thanks Russ. In addition to the use of funds issue I'd add that some of the prominent folks at SFW have been leaders in the public lands "transfer" movement which in my mind makes them poor friends of the average hunter (ie folks who hunt public land by both choice and economic necessity).

OR is outdoor retailer, which is in the same space. The lanes between booths of the hunt expo were 2-3 times as wide as at OR, and there were more of them. It isn't possible to merely eyeball/drive by all the stuff at summer OR in one 12 hour day. We saw everything at the hunt expo in about 5 hours.

I hesitate to do much of a comparison to the Seek Outside suspension because I've used it so much (~8000 trail miles since September of 2013) and SG and Kifaru not at all, but here goes.

The full wrap belt on SO is the obvious difference, but the width of the frame at the bottom (14") is I would guess just as significant. This width and the bends in the bottom of the SO frame wrap the weight around your pelvis in a way none of the other packs (save maybe Outdoorsmans) could do. This is probably why the Exo, which is at waistbelt level the narrowest bag, felt so off to me.

 

[DaveC]

More general pack thoughts:

-Full wrap belt v. lumbar is the big difference, and has been discussed backwards and forwards around here. More than ever I think it comes down to physiology; some people need a lumbar pad, some don't.

-Lumbar pad setups are by their very nature heavier than a full wrap, more material = more weight.

-Being able to adjust frame height with Seek Outside packs is darn handy, and something no one else I can think of makes possible (save McHale).

-SO and Exo are quite similar is their use of horizontal stays to fight barreling and back poking. Exo uses more, lighter and smaller carbon rods. In the Revo SO uses two very beefy alu stays. I suspect Exo has to use lighter ones to maintain flex, while SO can use very rigid 7075 alu because the articulation (at light loads) comes from the joint in the frame.

-The issue of frame width driving bag width and how the frame determines where cubic inches are allocated is a complex one and deserves more consideration. For example, the Exo (and Kifaru and Kuiu) frames need to be fairly narrow at the base because the stays can't be too far apart. The frame needs to interface directly with the lumbar pad for comfort and good lumbar contact, and that limits width to 8-9 inches. To make the bag wider than the frame at the base requires some stabilizing element, for example delta straps on Kifaru. Wider frames, like SO and Outdoorsmans, have a bunch more latitude to make a large bag relatively thin, which is advantageous for good load carriage. The converse is that a wide frame makes constructing a small bag a little more complicated.

-Both SG and MR folks (Black Ovis, actually) said that lacking a dedicated spotter pocket was not a big deal for a lot of folks. There seems to be a big gulf between the two camps on this issue.

-Non meat shelf packs are in the hunting world just about dead. I like a meat shelf for certain applications, but I suspect the bigger driver is that people like being able to swap bags, though I imagine in practice most just use one bag for everything. Hunters are willing to pay a lot more than backpackers for gear, and in terms of the average consumer are less educated and have less experience. By this I mean there are lots of whitetail guys with lots of hunting experience but little wilderness experience who want to put down $500+ on a pack, without having the field time to know what they want. Therefore it's good to be able to buy a frame/bag combo, and only have to switch bags if down the road they want to switch.

Thoughts?

 

[elkyinzer]

Thanks for the writeups, have always trusted what you have to say. Especially with regards to the lumbar support. I don't like a whole lot of it so I'm going to seek out your advice if I ever upgrade my pack.

Without any of the technical expertise you have and very little hands-on experience beyond comparison to my MR NICE frame, I also find my brother's Exo 3500 has that "tippy" characteristic. Like a weird kind of sway that is similar, but doesn't entirely have to do with weight distribution. I think it may be that the frame stays have a lot more give than I am used to. Regardless, I didn't like it.

Your last point above about the meat shelf I disagree with. I think that comes down to hunters needs and preferences skewing more toward versatility and has nothing to do with the perception that hikers are somehow more knowledgeable. Hikers are carrying the same gear day in day out with little variability. Easy to understand why their pack market as a result has a lot less product differentiation and the designs basically all converge over time. Hunters comparatively beat the crap out of gear, but more importantly seek more versatility which you did allude to. Not only do a large number of hunters prefer to pack bone-in quarters with a meat shelf, but also want to pack everything from treestands to bear bait to chainsaws and tools. We don't want to be constrained in that regard by an internal frame pack nor the hassle of properly loading a batwing type load hauler, so the meat shelf is a great compromise.

 

[Mike7]

Dave C, thank you for your always detailed thoughtful assessments. I would be interested to read your opinions on the differences between the Seek Outside and Stone Glacier X-curve (relative strengths and weakness depending upon what is being asked of the pack), after you have put some miles on the SG with various weights and over varying terrain.

From the packs that I have had, starting with an actually very light aluminum framed Camp Trails pack in the late 70's/ealy 80's as teen, it seems like the details of the suspension-frame attachment & hip belt over the years on any internal or external frame pack are more important than the frame itself as to how the pack behaves with light vs. heavy loads and while walking on hiking trails vs. going cross country on steep hillsides and over blowdowns...and there always seems to be some compromise to me.

Since 90% (actually 99% for me) of the time I am carrying a load less than 50 lbs without game meat, I prefer a little more that my pack be comfortable with these lighter loads allowing for hip movement independent to my low back with walking (which I think decreases fatigue), but just stiff enough and with enough lateral stability, that I can climb over logs and boulders with 100 lb loads of game meat without having to fight falling too much due to a swaying pack.

The problem that I have had with backpacking packs for hunting over the years, is the lack of lower compression straps to elevate and compress the load, too many small but still bulky unnecessary outside pockets, and not enough lumbar pad for the design of the hip belt to keep the belt from sliding down with heavy loads.

The thing that intrigues me about the new frames that allow the bag to be removed, is not that I will sometimes be using a different bag necessarily or that I need to pack meat between the bag and the frame (since I like packing meat in the bag), but rather that I can remove the pack bag when needed, and replace it with a dry bag and pack raft placed in the meat shelf for packrafting, or that I can remove the pack bag and use the meat shelf by itself when going back in for additional loads of meat.

 

[Yellowknife]

-The issue of frame width driving bag width and how the frame determines where cubic inches are allocated is a complex one and deserves more consideration. For example, the Exo (and Kifaru and Kuiu) frames need to be fairly narrow at the base because the stays can't be too far apart. The frame needs to interface directly with the lumbar pad for comfort and good lumbar contact, and that limits width to 8-9 inches. To make the bag wider than the frame at the base requires some stabilizing element, for example delta straps on Kifaru. Wider frames, like SO and Outdoorsmans, have a bunch more latitude to make a large bag relatively thin, which is advantageous for good load carriage. The converse is that a wide frame makes constructing a small bag a little more complicated.

Thoughts?

For what it's worth, the SG frame stays are really only about 9" across.



Pretty narrow compared to the "traditional" type frame packs at 14"



It's true that hip belt isn't tucked into a lumbar pad, but instead attached to a short frame sheet at the bottom that adds "wings" out several inches on each side. That spreads and stabilizes the load on the hips quite well. However, it doesn't help attach a wider bag at all, since the attachment points are limited to the 9" width.

The bags are obviously wider than that, but I don't think they have any particular advantage over the other currently popular packs on the market in that respect. A 9" frame will never stabilize a really awkward load like a 14" frame... which is the reason I still own a Barneys for some applications.

 

[DaveC]

A 9" frame will never stabilize a really awkward load like a 14" frame... which is the reason I still own a Barneys for some applications.

Agreed 100%. For a deer-sized animal, especially bone out, the new generation stuff gives up nothing. Elk are probably in the transition zone, and I'd assume moose (never hunted em) are better dealt with using a Barney's or something on that scale.

 

[DaveC]

We don't want to be constrained in that regard by an internal frame pack nor the hassle of properly loading a batwing type load hauler, so the meat shelf is a great compromise.

A fair point. The lighter, simpler meat shelf packs add something like 8-10 ounces compared to a true internal of the same design. You get a lot for that weight if the bag to frame connection is well done and not floppy.

 

[todd kelly]

Anyone who has used the Exo 3500 or 5500 can you comment on the pack being "tippy" as described in DaveC's comments above. How do you find it handles loads 80lbs and over ?

Read the same comment on another hunting forum of the Exo being tippy/sloppy feeling with weight over 40 pounds.

 

[Akicita]

This is by far the most objective "pack comparison" thread I have read here since becoming a member. Very valuable information for all those seeking the best fit and function. Like all things there is no best pack. . . It has to be the best fit and comfort for the individual user and there will certainly be some compromises to total functionality versus fit and comfort, with fit and comfort being paramount in any selection. I have a total of 7 packs for different functions all of which are by different manufacturers but all were chosen by fit and comfort for their particular uses.