Trouble with load development

[Jake H]

What kinds dies are you using? If bushing die…..how much neck tension are you getting?

Just the hornady dies. Not sure about neck tension part. Something else’s I’ll have to look into

 

[Jake H]

A little surprising 165 accubonds weren't good with 2 different powders then.

What's your reloading process?

Up to this point I’ve just done brass prep, (cut,clean,resize) then I’ve loaded those two bullets with 2 different powders at .2 gr. Charge weight up to heavy bolt lift. Seating depth just has been coal in manuals. I do a total of 9 each. So I can do three round groups three times. And that’s been it up to this point. Sounds like messing with seating depth is what I’ll try next. Then maybe switch powders again if it does not work. Like I said this is my first time. It’s a hard hobby to get into as I’ve noticed for every person that says one things important another says it doesn’t make any difference lol. Guess that’s half the fun though is learning and figuring it out.

 

[Jake H]

We need more info on your equipment and how you are loading.

Are you using the same lot and brand of brass for your loads?

Hornady dies, all Norma brass from factory ammo so not same lot

 

[wind gypsy]

Up to this point I’ve just done brass prep, (cut,clean,resize) then I’ve loaded those two bullets with 2 different powders at .2 gr. Charge weight up to heavy bolt lift. Seating depth just has been coal in manuals. I do a total of 9 each. So I can do three round groups three times. And that’s been it up to this point. Sounds like messing with seating depth is what I’ll try next. Then maybe switch powders again if it does not work. Like I said this is my first time. It’s a hard hobby to get into as I’ve noticed for every person that says one things important another says it doesn’t make any difference lol. Guess that’s half the fun though is learning and figuring it out.

Do you clean after resizing? How do you resize? Chamfer/debur?

Edit: I’d try using similar lot and firing count brass.

 

[Jake H]

What I do is just run it the sizing die, cut the case to size, chamfer and de-burr, throw it in tumbler overnight then prime and reload

 

[Koda_]

Up to this point I’ve just done brass prep, (cut,clean,resize) then I’ve loaded those two bullets with 2 different powders at .2 gr. Charge weight up to heavy bolt lift. Seating depth just has been coal in manuals. I do a total of 9 each. So I can do three round groups three times. And that’s been it up to this point. Sounds like messing with seating depth is what I’ll try next. Then maybe switch powders again if it does not work. Like I said this is my first time. It’s a hard hobby to get into as I’ve noticed for every person that says one things important another says it doesn’t make any difference lol. Guess that’s half the fun though is learning and figuring it out.

Trim (cut?) your cases after you resize.... That could be the issue right there.

You will get overwhemed with different advice but the basics remain the same and is where you should begin. Consistency is key, do the same exact thing every time and only change when/if you learn something needs to be done different.

The basics:

Step by Step Reloading | RCBS

Learn how to reload your firearm-step by step.

www.rcbs.com

 

[Jake H]

Trim (cut?) your cases after you resize.... That could be the issue right there.

You will get overwhemed with different advice but the basics remain the same and is where you should begin. Consistency is key, do the same exact thing every time and only change when/if you learn something needs to be done different.

The basics:

Step by Step Reloading | RCBS

Learn how to reload your firearm-step by step.

www.rcbs.com

Oh ok, so you should cut first? How would that effect if I may ask?

 

[Koda_]

Oh ok, so you should cut first? How would that effect if I may ask?

I dont know what you mean by "cut"?

Resize before trim because sizing can change the trim length.

 

[mtnbound]

New to reloading and looking for some suggestions. I have a savage ultra light in .308 1/10 22” barrel. Trying to figure out how to develop load for it. (1st time)
With good factory ammo it is pretty capable of 3/4 moa 3round groups. How ever I’m having a hard time even getting under 1.5 moa with my hand loads. Started off with var get and Nosler 165 gr. Accubond. Did charge test every .25 grains up till pressure signs. After several hundred rounds, I switched to tac and accubonds. Same thing.
I am now using both tac or varget and sierra tipped match kings. Shooting 3-3round groups of different charge weight up to 44.5 gr. Very large and inconsistent groups for 2.5-1.5 moa all over target. Using Norma brass trimmed to 2.005 . Probably have 250 rounds over several months and I’m getting no where just wondering if any has suggestions on what I’m doing wrong. I have been open to it possibly being poor shooting, but switching back to factory ammo and I shoot well again.

Not sure you saw my earlier post but go through the attached thread it has a lot of good info.

Painless load development (mine)

Painless load development (mine)

I have had multiple people ask me to lay out how I do load development being that what I do is different. Since Shaen @Shooter71 just rebarreled a Tikka 595 in 6XC I thought it would be easy to show how I do it. It’s a Master Sporter with a T3 lite profiled 20” barrel- keep in mind it is a T3...

r.tapatalk.com

 

[Jason Snyder]

I’d try a different powder before I’d waste components on seating depth testing. Stop messing with 0.2 grain increments.

 

[Fireflyfishing]

What I do is just run it the sizing die, cut the case to size, chamfer and de-burr, throw it in tumbler overnight then prime and reload

I find solid brass and very consistent brass prep is the foundation on my loads. The Norma brass you mentioned earlier should yield good results. As others noted above, the precision of your brass prep will lead to better loads. It’s also something you can eliminate when problems arise with a load if you have good brass prep.

I’m assuming you’re full length sizing and you’re able to chamber rounds, yes?

If that is the case, you will be fine here at the start as long as you’re not damaging the brass and you’re consistent. It will be hard on your brass as you’ll likely be over sizing your brass and the brass will stretch to your chamber size forcing you to trim quite a bit on your case necks every loading. Over time you’ll want to pick up a headspace comparator to dial in the headspace of your brass. While you’re at it, get a bullet comparator as well.

Assuming you have a set of calipers to measure your cases, COAL, etc.?

Are you lubing your cases when you size the brass?

Oh ok, so you should cut first? How would that effect if I may ask?

As @Koda_ is trying to say, you don’t cut brass…unless you’re getting into wildcatting…and you’re not, or shouldn’t be when loading a .308. You will “trim” brass to make sure it is in spec and will fit in your chamber. It’s a sedulity in words, but they mean different things. How are you trimming your brass? Are you chamfer/deburring the case mouth post trim? This is important as you don’t want to shave copper while seating your bullets.

 

[Jake H]

I find solid brass and very consistent brass prep is the foundation on my loads. The Norma brass you mentioned earlier should yield good results. As others noted above, the precision of your brass prep will lead to better loads. It’s also something you can eliminate when problems arise with a load if you have good brass prep.

I’m assuming you’re full length sizing and you’re able to chamber rounds, yes?

If that is the case, you will be fine here at the start as long as you’re not damaging the brass and you’re consistent. It will be hard on your brass as you’ll likely be over sizing your brass and the brass will stretch to your chamber size forcing you to trim quite a bit on your case necks every loading. Over time you’ll want to pick up a headspace comparator to dial in the headspace of your brass. While you’re at it, get a bullet comparator as well.

Assuming you have a set of calipers to measure your cases, COAL, etc.?

Are you lubing your cases when you size the brass?

As @Koda_ is trying to say, you don’t cut brass…unless you’re getting into wildcatting…and you’re not, or shouldn’t be when loading a .308. You will “trim” brass to make sure it is in spec and will fit in your chamber. It’s a sedulity in words, but they mean different things. How are you trimming your brass? Are you chamfer/deburring the case mouth post trim? This is important as you don’t want to shave copper while seating your bullets.

Ok so yes, I guess I mean trimming. And I am chamfering and deburring

 

[Jake H]

So I had chance this morning to mess a little bit with seating depth. I didn’t have time to do full ladder, but I started .020 off lands, did one group same distance off lands as factory loads and then split the difference. I was just interested to see if it made any difference. First shot three round group of only factory loads I had being Norma whitetail to restore my confidence in myself and gun. .35” 3 round group. So that made me feel better. Next the 3 groups I loaded and I did notice closer I got to lands my groups opened up a lot. Farthest from lands was right at an inch, and closest being .020 off lands was 1.9”. Certainly giving me something to work with. When I have time I’m going to do a more in depth test on seating depth and then maybe play around more with powder.

 

[Jake H]

So I had chance this morning to mess a little bit with seating depth. I didn’t have time to do full ladder, but I started .020 off lands, did one group same distance off lands as factory loads and then split the difference. I was just interested to see if it made any difference. First shot three round group of only factory loads I had being Norma whitetail to restore my confidence in myself and gun. .35” 3 round group. So that made me feel better. Next the 3 groups I loaded and I did notice closer I got to lands my groups opened up a lot. Farthest from lands was right at an inch, and closest being .020 off lands was 1.9”. Certainly giving me something to work with. When I have time I’m going to do a more in depth test on seating depth and then maybe play around more with powder.

And before somebody suggests just switching to that Norma bullet, i absolutely would except I have not been impressed with the terminal performa on larger deer I’ve shot with it (4-5) such as axis and mule deer, which is mostly what I shoot.

 

[EdP]

I would try to duplicate the factory loads that shoot well. Chronograph them. Then use the same bullet to the same CBTO and load to the same velocity if possible w/o pressure issues. You may not be able to get the same vel as factory w/o pressure. Shoot and compare group size and stats (ES and SD). If your stats don't compare well with the factory loads try different powders. Don't get caught up in 2nd or 3rd tier factors like neck tension. That's not where your issue is. Focus on good brass prep as discussed above (resizing die adjustment), velocity, optimizing CBTO, and getting good stats.

Single 3 shot groups are too small of a sample size to draw conclusions from. If you are shooting multiple (3 or 4) 3 shot groups and you average them, that is a valid sample. I personally prefer multiple 5 shot groups. I also think .2 grain increments are a waste of time in a hunting rifle and never go smaller than .5 grains.

If you are going to be serious about load development, you need a chronograph. It will save you in components, shooting time, and barrel life big time. Note: You can get an adequate chronograph for $160. https://www.opticsplanet.com/competition-electronics-prochrono-dlx-with-bluetooth.html
The high end Garmin unit is sweet and you don't have to go down range to set it up, but you pay for that convenience.

 

[Lawnboi]

Are you measuring headspace while sizing?

 

[Harvey_NW]

So I had chance this morning to mess a little bit with seating depth. I didn’t have time to do full ladder, but I started .020 off lands, did one group same distance off lands as factory loads and then split the difference. I was just interested to see if it made any difference. First shot three round group of only factory loads I had being Norma whitetail to restore my confidence in myself and gun. .35” 3 round group. So that made me feel better. Next the 3 groups I loaded and I did notice closer I got to lands my groups opened up a lot. Farthest from lands was right at an inch, and closest being .020 off lands was 1.9”. Certainly giving me something to work with. When I have time I’m going to do a more in depth test on seating depth and then maybe play around more with powder.

3 shot groups are insignificant and the changes in group you're observing is just random distribution, they're likely all the same. If you're tinkering and testing for fun, continue mission. But if you're trying to find a good load for your rifle, stop wasting components by shooting 3 shot tests with tiny powder charge or seating depth iterations. Shoot 10 of the same and see what it does. Seating depth and powder charge don't have near the effect people traditionally believe. There are no magical "nodes" within a given combo, the load either shoots or it doesn't.

 

[N2TRKYS]

3 shot groups are plenty good enough. 0.5 grain increments are what I use. I’ve never had to fool with seating depth to get accurate loads. I’ve always gotten great accuracy using the suggested COAL. Base to ogive is WAY overrated.

 

[Harvey_NW]

3 shot groups are plenty good enough.

There's 60-70% variability in 3 shot groups, with the same load you could get from .3" groups to 1.7" groups. If that's good enough for you, great. But people wanting to learn need to know that 3 shots absolutely will not give you any valid indication of what the load is capable of producing consistently.

 

[Jason Snyder]

3 shot groups are plenty good enough.

To confirm accuracy is bad, yes. To confirm it’s good, no.