Traditional-only archery seasons?

[Btaylor]

Agreed. The problem as I see it; Bowhunters avoid politics and are individual by nature.

Its the reason the antis- who do band together- are able to trample us.
If all hunters banded together…we would be a force to be reconned with.

Exactly the reason I think traditional seasons are a bad idea, just more divide between weapon choice. Stop cutting the pie into more pieces and focus on protecting the dang pie.

 

[bisblue]

Exactly the reason I think traditional seasons are a bad idea, just more divide between weapon choice. Stop cutting the pie into more pieces and focus on protecting the dang pie.

I think one issue is the wildlife pie is very difficult to make bigger, via things like habitat improvements and landowner access....
However more people want a piece and/or a bigger piece of the pie, out of state folks (both east and western folks hunting other western states), more info (podcast, go hunt, youtube), western states growing population wise, billionaire absentee landowners buying property to block public access, then we have drought, habitat encroachment (homes, oil and gas, solar, wind, mining, non authorized OHV, non authorized human powered recreation, shed hunting), feral horses, more extreme weather (snow and or heat).
Just doesn't seem like the pie is going to stay the same or get bigger without some major changes and a ton of leg work.

 

[nphunter]

Exactly the reason I think traditional seasons are a bad idea, just more divide between weapon choice. Stop cutting the pie into more pieces and focus on protecting the dang pie.

By dividing the pie up more people get to enjoy the pie which make everyone happy instead of the majority watching a small minority get to eat the pie and then post how good it was online.

Oregon is currently splitting seasons because hunters are dividing themselves due to so-called overcrowding. Everyone watches youtube and sees how awesome elk hunting is supposed to be and then they drive to the woods and all they see is more hunters driving around and then the reason they didn't kill an elk is due to overcrowding. We just got rid of 100% of our Resident general and OTC hunting for both deer and elk in the last two years due to hunters bitching about overcrowding, it was the #1 complaint in the state, now we are all stuck to pick your unit draw hunts which sucks. Idaho is the same, they got rid of the general season for all NR like 2 years ago due to overcrowding bitching from their residents even though the majority is from new residents moving in from other states.

I would rather see seasons for each weapon choice in every unit, Archery, Traditional, Muzzleloader and Rifle, that would lessen the pressure on animals because hunters would be able to get away from people without having to dive into every little hidey hole in the units. Traditional archery is also a great way to allow people to enjoy hunting and has almost no effect on big game population numbers.

Why would a rifle hunter or regular archery hunter care if there is a season for a traditional hunter? Hunter recruitment is huge and what keeps people hunting is the opportunity to hunt, once things like OTC tags go away and everything ends up a draw where a person can only hunt every 4 or 5 years they tend to give it up altogether. I've seen this happen a lot here in OR, most of the people I grew up with hunting no longer hunt, my father was a huge elk hunter and has killed 50+ elk, the area we live and grew up hunting was a general tag, now it takes 8 years to get a tag. We use to have a family elk camp every single year and us kids would get out of school to go to camp and hang and hunt when we were old enough. Camps like this are few and far between now due to loss of opportunity which could have easily been mitigated by opening up additional seasons to still allow people to get outdoors and hunt every year.

There are only so many things we can do to control populations, the easiest is to limit hunters' success or presents in the field. Allowing additional methods of take where success rates are much lower allows that many more people an opportunity to hunt without killing animals as efficiently. A great example is a deer hunt in the Oregon desert they allow like 50 tags with success at 84% on bucks, 34 4-point bucks and it takes 15yrs to draw the tag, they also spent a total of 231 days hunting to kill 41 deer. There is also a trad hunt in the unit that has 100 tags available, those hunters spent 359 total days hunting and killed 2 bucks, both 4 points. If you google that hunt all you hear is rifle hunters bitching about how the unit has really gone down hill, there are no mature deer, etc. I have yet to hear a single traditional archery hunter bitch about that hunt, why? Because they get to chase great mule deer every single year with their bow in one of the best units in the state, even though there is only a 5% success rate those guys are happy as can be.

 

[Btaylor]

By dividing the pie up more people get to enjoy the pie which make everyone happy instead of the majority watching a small minority get to eat the pie and then post how good it was online.

Oregon is currently splitting seasons because hunters are dividing themselves due to so-called overcrowding. Everyone watches youtube and sees how awesome elk hunting is supposed to be and then they drive to the woods and all they see is more hunters driving around and then the reason they didn't kill an elk is due to overcrowding. We just got rid of 100% of our Resident general and OTC hunting for both deer and elk in the last two years due to hunters bitching about overcrowding, it was the #1 complaint in the state, now we are all stuck to pick your unit draw hunts which sucks. Idaho is the same, they got rid of the general season for all NR like 2 years ago due to overcrowding bitching from their residents even though the majority is from new residents moving in from other states.

I would rather see seasons for each weapon choice in every unit, Archery, Traditional, Muzzleloader and Rifle, that would lessen the pressure on animals because hunters would be able to get away from people without having to dive into every little hidey hole in the units. Traditional archery is also a great way to allow people to enjoy hunting and has almost no effect on big game population numbers.

Why would a rifle hunter or regular archery hunter care if there is a season for a traditional hunter? Hunter recruitment is huge and what keeps people hunting is the opportunity to hunt, once things like OTC tags go away and everything ends up a draw where a person can only hunt every 4 or 5 years they tend to give it up altogether. I've seen this happen a lot here in OR, most of the people I grew up with hunting no longer hunt, my father was a huge elk hunter and has killed 50+ elk, the area we live and grew up hunting was a general tag, now it takes 8 years to get a tag. We use to have a family elk camp every single year and us kids would get out of school to go to camp and hang and hunt when we were old enough. Camps like this are few and far between now due to loss of opportunity which could have easily been mitigated by opening up additional seasons to still allow people to get outdoors and hunt every year.

There are only so many things we can do to control populations, the easiest is to limit hunters' success or presents in the field. Allowing additional methods of take where success rates are much lower allows that many more people an opportunity to hunt without killing animals as efficiently. A great example is a deer hunt in the Oregon desert they allow like 50 tags with success at 84% on bucks, 34 4-point bucks and it takes 15yrs to draw the tag, they also spent a total of 231 days hunting to kill 41 deer. There is also a trad hunt in the unit that has 100 tags available, those hunters spent 359 total days hunting and killed 2 bucks, both 4 points. If you google that hunt all you hear is rifle hunters bitching about how the unit has really gone down hill, there are no mature deer, etc. I have yet to hear a single traditional archery hunter bitch about that hunt, why? Because they get to chase great mule deer every single year with their bow in one of the best units in the state, even though there is only a 5% success rate those guys are happy as can be.

Not familiar with every states season structure but of the ones I am, in order to create a traditional season, one of 2 things probably would have to happen, either adding days at the front end before regular archery or reducing days in the current regular archery structure. That's assuming a traditional archery season would be early. As a traditional archery hunter, I would not support reducing opportunity for other bowhunters by reducing the days of opportunity just to have a traditional only season. I would much rather hunt in regular archery season with an either sex tag in a zone with bull/cow quotas and mandatory reporting. That way I can hunt for the first legal animal. I might want to kill a bull but once the bull quota is reached, I can still kill a cow. Or in my case specifically, I would be tickled to shoot the first legal animal because I just want the meat. If I can do that in the first couple of days, I am out of the field. I have a better opportunity for success and game and fish has better information for managing the herd. People leave hunting because they dont see opportunity for success. From my perspective, what that means for western species is there is a need to eliminate OTC tags, there is a giant need to better manage habitat, there is a need for better herd and harvest data so better decisions can be made for season guidelines and there is a need for hunters to understand the broader dynamics involved in having good hunting. We should be engaged and demanding of the changes that will improve and sustain good hunting not bitching about getting some specialty season because we identify as a trad archery hunter, flintlocker or whatever weapon niche you choose.

 

[nevadabugle]

Not familiar with every states season structure but of the ones I am, in order to create a traditional season, one of 2 things probably would have to happen, either adding days at the front end before regular archery or reducing days in the current regular archery structure. That's assuming a traditional archery season would be early. As a traditional archery hunter, I would not support reducing opportunity for other bowhunters by reducing the days of opportunity just to have a traditional only season. I would much rather hunt in regular archery season with an either sex tag in a zone with bull/cow quotas and mandatory reporting. That way I can hunt for the first legal animal. I might want to kill a bull but once the bull quota is reached, I can still kill a cow. Or in my case specifically, I would be tickled to shoot the first legal animal because I just want the meat. If I can do that in the first couple of days, I am out of the field. I have a better opportunity for success and game and fish has better information for managing the herd. People leave hunting because they dont see opportunity for success. From my perspective, what that means for western species is there is a need to eliminate OTC tags, there is a giant need to better manage habitat, there is a need for better herd and harvest data so better decisions can be made for season guidelines and there is a need for hunters to understand the broader dynamics involved in having good hunting. We should be engaged and demanding of the changes that will improve and sustain good hunting not bitching about getting some specialty season because we identify as a trad archery hunter, flintlocker or whatever weapon niche you choose.

It surprises me that all states don't have mandatory reporting. Nevada has had mandatory reporting for decades. If a hunter fails to report you pay a fine or sit out the next season.

How can wildlife manager know what the harvest was and how to adjust tags the following year without reporting? Seems strange to me.

 

[nevadabugle]

Not familiar with every states season structure but of the ones I am, in order to create a traditional season, one of 2 things probably would have to happen, either adding days at the front end before regular archery or reducing days in the current regular archery structure. That's assuming a traditional archery season would be early. As a traditional archery hunter, I would not support reducing opportunity for other bowhunters by reducing the days of opportunity just to have a traditional only season. I would much rather hunt in regular archery season with an either sex tag in a zone with bull/cow quotas and mandatory reporting. That way I can hunt for the first legal animal. I might want to kill a bull but once the bull quota is reached, I can still kill a cow. Or in my case specifically, I would be tickled to shoot the first legal animal because I just want the meat. If I can do that in the first couple of days, I am out of the field. I have a better opportunity for success and game and fish has better information for managing the herd. People leave hunting because they dont see opportunity for success. From my perspective, what that means for western species is there is a need to eliminate OTC tags, there is a giant need to better manage habitat, there is a need for better herd and harvest data so better decisions can be made for season guidelines and there is a need for hunters to understand the broader dynamics involved in having good hunting. We should be engaged and demanding of the changes that will improve and sustain good hunting not bitching about getting some specialty season because we identify as a trad archery hunter, flintlocker or whatever weapon niche you choose.

I respect your opinion on not seeing the value and i can agree to disagree on that point.

But I want to point out one other thing. The bowhunting organizations that are pushing for these opportunities are not just dointoit to get "specialty seasons", although that is part of it. They are also doing it to promote and increase the participation in our sport. If we don't recruit new traditional bowhunters the sport will never grow. Think of it this way, if there had never been archery seasons established, and all archers had to hunt in the rifle season, the sport would be no where as big as it is today.

Not intending to argue, but just want to point out there are other benefits to exploring these opportunities. And I fully agree that in some states or areas Maybe there is no room, but I bet in most there are opportunities that don't steal opportunity from other hunters.

Appreciate your input.

 

[Btaylor]

I respect your opinion on not seeing the value and i can agree to disagree on that point.

But I want to point out one other thing. The bowhunting organizations that are pushing for these opportunities are not just dointoit to get "specialty seasons", although that is part of it. They are also doing it to promote and increase the participation in our sport. If we don't recruit new traditional bowhunters the sport will never grow. Think of it this way, if there had never been archery seasons established, and all archers had to hunt in the rifle season, the sport would be no where as big as it is today.

Not intending to argue, but just want to point out there are other benefits to exploring these opportunities. And I fully agree that in some states or areas Maybe there is no room, but I bet in most there are opportunities that don't steal opportunity from other hunters.

Appreciate your input.

I dont disagree with you at all that the intentions are good. I am just trying to look at it from a more macro view. The reality is traditional bowhunting will always be a niche group because it takes more time and effort than most people are willing to commit to being adequate with the weapon, nevermind learning how to consistently get into the limited range to be successful. The question then becomes do we gain participation because of an extra season or do we gain participation because those currently hunting with the equipment are more consistently successful? I tend to think folks are more inclined to accept greater challenge if there is a reasonable expectation of finding success. I dont see that happening under the current habitat or game management in place.

I tend to view western hunting currently much like waterfowling was prior the banning of market hunting and the inception of daily bag limits, etc. Hard decisions had to be made during that time period in order to ensure the sustainability of the resource and the hunting opportunity for all that wanted to pursue ducks and geese. The current models, lumping all western states together, do not shine a favorable light on the future. Do we have the stomach to make the hard decisions that will change the course to one with a brighter future, one that affords everyone and the resources the opportunity for success. That wont happen until we take our me hat off and put our we hat on.

 

[nphunter]

I dont disagree with you at all that the intentions are good. I am just trying to look at it from a more macro view. The reality is traditional bowhunting will always be a niche group because it takes more time and effort than most people are willing to commit to being adequate with the weapon, nevermind learning how to consistently get into the limited range to be successful. The question then becomes do we gain participation because of an extra season or do we gain participation because those currently hunting with the equipment are more consistently successful? I tend to think folks are more inclined to accept greater challenge if there is a reasonable expectation of finding success. I dont see that happening under the current habitat or game management in place.

I tend to view western hunting currently much like waterfowling was prior the banning of market hunting and the inception of daily bag limits, etc. Hard decisions had to be made during that time period in order to ensure the sustainability of the resource and the hunting opportunity for all that wanted to pursue ducks and geese. The current models, lumping all western states together, do not shine a favorable light on the future. Do we have the stomach to make the hard decisions that will change the course to one with a brighter future, one that affords everyone and the resources the opportunity for success. That wont happen until we take our me hat off and put our we hat on.

The two states I mentioned before, Idaho and Oregon both removed OTC and General opportunities due to overcrowding, the majority of the units that were changed for elk hunting, specifically in Eastern Oregon are well above the management objective for elk. It has absolutely nothing to do with the resource but 100% to do with hunter survey results, specifically people didn't want to see other hunters while hunting. Adding additional seasons or cutting tag numbers are the only way to manage that specific issue, Oregon has chosen to do both which I very much agree with. Personally, I would have managed the wildlife and not catered to all of the people crying, I hunt in those same overcrowded units every season and easily get away from people and always get my 6-point bull. People just need an excuse why they are not successful and it is easier to blame it on other people, overcrowding, poor populations or whatever the reason instead of looking in the mirror and realizing they just aren't putting in the effort that those of us that are consistently successful are.

As far as traditional archery, it just gives those of us that would rather hunt and put in the work the opportunity to hunt every year instead of having to wait in line for the tags for an easier hunt. For the record I'm not a traditional archer, I hunt with my compound because I want to kill elk every year and know that I might miss out on that chance with my trad bow. I got into trad hunting for a specific hunt OR offers for deer and really enjoy that hunt when I do it, but, if we continue to have other issues with population growth and ungulate declines and the start cutting more and more archery tags to the point I can't hunt with my bow every year I would switch to my trad bow so I could hunt every year. Currently, I put in for traditional archery second choice which means the years that I can't draw a regular bow tag I can still hunt, a good friend had that happen last fall and ended up hunting with his trad bow.

I love hunting and don't really care about the weapon of choice, but with the efficiency of bows being able to shoot 100+ yards and rifles 1000+ yards, success rates are getting higher almost every year. Oregon has several elk units where the success rates with bows are higher than with a rifle, as long as this trend keeps going and as popular as archery has become the only way to still allow us to hunt without diminishing the resource is to limit hunter in the field or limit the efficiency of the weapon.

I agree that way more needs to be done for mule deer, but the habitat is not an issue in most areas, predators are the overwhelming issue and our political atmosphere out west will not allow us to manage those effectively and never will. We are currently in the process of losing all trapping, we've already lost the ability to hunt with hounds, and bait and can't even look at a wolf if we have a gun in our hands. People are having their pets killed in their yards by wolves around here, we had a pack of wolves at my work two days ago and we are way out in the desert in the mule deer winter range. I've had two lions killed in my neighbors yard in the last 6 months and I live in town, my house was built in 1920 and I live a few miles from USFS land, it's not like we have been encroaching on their habitat, the predators are running out of food in the woods and are moving into town for easy meals.

Sorry for the long posts but we have been losing hunting opportunities at an alarming rate over the last 10 years and it's getting worse and worse every year. Thanks as Traditional archery and Muzzle loader hunting get us some of that opportunity back, it's not like it's taking an opportunity from others, the others have already lost the opportunity due to the overcrowding complaints. We have lost over 10K archery tags over the last couple of years and they've only added like 400 traditional archery tags so there's a long ways to go.

 

[Btaylor]

@nphunter I didnt specifically mention predators but I 100% agree with you there and view that as part of the resource and habitat management.

 

[Beendare]

I think we can all agree…us trad hunters need a season where we can get in there first.

now, if we can only get the fish and game department to agree

 

[sneaky]

Adding trad- only tags in LE units would help cycle through points and help, if only a little, with point creep. The success rates are certainly to the point where there isn't going to be a drain on the resource from trad guys hunting.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[nevadabugle]

Adding trad- only tags in LE units would help cycle through points and help, if only a little, with point creep. The success rates are certainly to the point where there isn't going to be a drain on the resource from trad guys hunting.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Yep, in Utah this has been discussed. Appreciate the input.

 

[Beendare]

Adding trad- only tags……. The success rates are certainly to the point where there isn't going to be a drain on the resource from trad guys hunting.

Hey now….what are you implying? Thats insulting….grin

Yeah, its true…I think I do pretty good with a recurve killing some critters but the short range aspect does limit success. It would be great if you are a treestand whitetail guy that can setup for really short shots.

Thats not the case out west.
I was just hunting hogs for a day on a buddies ranch with my makeshift recurve rig and had this good boar just moving through. Stalking him on the ground, I got 50y but then he would move again…I just couldn’t get any closer before he moved off And I los5 him in thick brush.

Maybe someday I will feel good about a 50y shot…but right now- nope.

 

[Btaylor]

Hey now….what are you implying? Thats insulting….grin

Yeah, its true…I think I do pretty good with a recurve killing some critters but the short range aspect does limit success. It would be great if you are a treestand whitetail guy that can setup for really short shots.

Thats not the case out west.
I was just hunting hogs for a day on a buddies ranch with my makeshift recurve rig and had this good boar just moving through. Stalking him on the ground, I got 50y but then he would move again…I just couldn’t get any closer before he moved off And I los5 him in thick brush.

Maybe someday I will feel good about a 50y shot…but right now- nope.

This may not be a popular opinion but its a hog. If arras aint flying hogs aint dying. They all need a good killin, they dont all need to be recovered even if they are tasty. Wouldnt say that about a game species and dont expect folks that dont have hogs on their hunting grounds to understand.

 

[Beendare]

This may not be a popular opinion but its a hog. If arras aint flying hogs aint dying. They all need a good killin, they dont all need to be recovered even if they are tasty. Wouldnt say that about a game species and dont expect folks that dont have hogs on their hunting grounds to understand.

Yeah, thats true…I get it. They are not as infested in the central California area I hunt As areas of Texas and the south.

I’m fiddling with setups…I have no idea where to aim past 40 with that setup….once I get dialed, I will shoot my hunt bow out to 80y in case I ever need a followup on a wounded animal.

I figure I will get another whack at him….he probably lives in that brush.

 

[redchinviking]

Yes please more traditional archery hunts. I’m getting my stick bow out more this year regardless but If I had a traditional only tag it would be great to leave my compound home for the season and commit! Tell me where to sign. Archery btw is more traditional than muzzleloaders and they get their own season, why not bare bows? Explain to me that reasoning.

 

[Btaylor]

Yes please more traditional archery hunts. I’m getting my stick bow out more this year regardless but If I had a traditional only tag it would be great to leave my compound home for the season and commit! Tell me where to sign. Archery btw is more traditional than muzzleloaders and they get their own season, why not bare bows? Explain to me that reasoning.

When bow season first came into being, there were no compounds. When compounds came along they got rolled into bow season. I would rather keep archery season for trad bows and give the coattail riders a week or two separate season than vicey versey.

 

[TheTone]

You guys okay with trad only seasons okay with giving up the ability to hunt during other archery seasons?

 

[nevadabugle]

You guys okay with trad only seasons okay with giving up the ability to hunt during other archery seasons?

Thats a tough question to answer. Would have to be State specific and would have to know the details of the new trad only seasons. Hunt structures are so different state to state that unless you can see all the details it's impossible to answer that question.

In Oregon, I am more than happy to only be able to hunt the trad only season. The number of people that apply for those hunts would also suggest that their is a portion of the population that also agrees with me.

 

[Btaylor]

You guys okay with trad only seasons okay with giving up the ability to hunt during other archery seasons?

Sure if the normal pattern of season structure is held too where the "lessor" weapon has more days of opportunity. ML and MG have less days than archery, if compounds and trad are split, it makes sense trad would get the bulk of the days correct?