Traditional muzzleloader Question

[MattEastman]

T43, I see your point as well. I'm still on the fence on this subject. After my last post, I looked up a couple Muzzy forums and found a ton a folks who swear by the round ball out to 75-100 yards. Dang, I just can't make up my mind. I think i will buy a package of conicals and play around with them, go from there.

 

[robby denning]

T43,
Cecil doesn't seem to be trying to get everyone on the long range bandwagon to me.

He's just showing that muzzleloaders are much more capable than we allow. He chooses to hunt with one even in rifle areas, just because he likes the challenge with a smokepole. Yes, he scopes them often (the true secret to long range muzzleloading) but is still hunting within effective range of the guns based on kinetic energy.

It's long been accepted that for deer sized game, you need minimum of 800-1000 foot pounds KE to kill humanely and that seems to be what he stays within on his hunts.

He's right about round balls based on energy and is why we mentioned to Matt to at least call him.

I think it's great if a guy wants to hunt with the total primitive muzzleloaders and bare recurve bows- definitely a challenge only few hunters are up to, and they have my respect.

I (and others) just wanted to point out we can do better job killing with a conical type bullet, and these were introduced during the Civil War (the minnie ball), so are pretty traditional to me.

Matt won't be able to use a scope in Colorado so the sighting system will still limit him to about 100 or so, but with a conical, will have the energy to humanely kill a deer.

Just my thoughts.

Keep us posted Matt.

 

[robby denning]

Also Matt, I'll give you a scenario. Right up front I'll say I'm a trophy hunter so this is coming from my perspective. I fully embrace anyone who is happy with a less-than-trophy size bucks as "trophy" truly is defined by the individual.

Say you go on your hunt and poke around a few days. You see some bucks you'd be happy with but eventually you see 180" solid buck and decide he is the one.

You spend a day figuring out how to approach him, the opportunity arises and you set out on the stalk. At 150 yards, you're feeling pretty good about closing that last 50-75 yards so you can be effective with the round ball at 75-100 yards. At 120 yards out, the buck gets nervous, stands up and walks away. From out of nowhere walks a legit 200" buck who decided he didn't want that "lesser" buck around. He stops for 10 seconds broadside and watches the "smaller' buck make his way down the mountain, then begins to follow him and that is the last you ever see either deer.

If you stay within the "ethical" limits of the round ball and don't take that 120 yard shot, AND won't regret what happened, then I'd say hunt with the round ball.

If it's going to haunt you for the rest of your life that you didn't have a bullet in the gun that could easily make the kill at that yardage at an extremely rare buck, then you might reconsider.

Just my thoughts on a very personal subject. Whatever you decide, I'm behind you all the way.

 

[MattEastman]

Robby, thats about the exact scenario that has played out in my mind. Im confident that I can get within 75 yards on a good buck. BUT, things happen. The wind swirls, a "Rok"slides out from under you. Things happen. So with that, Im going to give the conical a try. I want to give myself the best opportunity down there this fall.

I really do appreciate all the feed back from all of you. I've been shooting a muzzy for a couple years now, but consider myself a rookie. This topic has got my mind racing and I've learned a few things from it. Thanks fellas. I will keep you posted.

 

[robby denning]

Matt, I did order the UL 1 Spitzer and should be here any day.

T43, I re-read your post and not sure if you mean Cecil's effective range by energy or distance. I assume you mean energy. I get that all he is saying is that try and choose bullets that deliver lots of energy vs those that don't. That just sounds humane to me.

You say why not hunt with a rifle??? Big difference between an open sighted muzzleloader, as required by most states, than a scoped rifle. I don't think choosing a bullet that can deliver way more energy at 100 yards than a round ball is getting away from the roots of muzzleloader hunting. A rifle can be effective beyond 500 yards by many people and is a whole different ball game than what we are talking about here.

The bullet mentioned above has enough energy to kill deer at 175 yards, BUT, that doesn't mean anyone can put a bullet in the kill zone at that range with open sights. In fact, most can't. The front sight on most muzzleloaders will subtend enough angle, that you can't even pick a spot to aim at on a deer at more than 125 yards.

It's the sighting system to me that makes the muzzleloader a challenge. I personally don't want to handicap myself in the energy department if I don't have to. Most guys I know will not pass up a 100 yard shot with a ball at 100 yards. The deer looks close, the sighting is capable enough, but if they are shooting a round ball, that is not a humane shot.

The minnie ball was introduced in the civil war and gave the North a huge advantage because they could get them in mass quantities (due to the industrialized North) to their troops who could shoot them further than the guys shooting round balls. I only mention that because if we want to truly be "traditional" then we need to only shoot guns/bullets designs made before about 1860 and keep our shots close. Many of the Civil War rifles were capable of killing beyond 200 yards.

Just my opinion. Yours is welcome, too.

 

[MattEastman]

Matt, I did order the UL 1 Spitzer and should be here any day.

T43, I re-read your post and not sure if you mean Cecil's effective range by energy or distance. I assume you mean energy. I get that all he is saying is that try and choose bullets that deliver lots of energy vs those that don't. That just sounds humane to me.

You say why not hunt with a rifle??? Big difference between an open sighted muzzleloader, as required by most states, than a scoped rifle. I don't think choosing a bullet that can deliver way more energy at 100 yards than a round ball is getting away from the roots of muzzleloader hunting. A rifle can be effective beyond 500 yards by many people and is a whole different ball game than what we are talking about here.

The bullet mentioned above has enough energy to kill deer at 175 yards, BUT, that doesn't mean anyone can put a bullet in the kill zone at that range with open sights. In fact, most can't. The front sight on most muzzleloaders will subtend enough angle, that you can't even pick a spot to aim at on a deer at more than 125 yards.

It's the sighting system to me that makes the muzzleloader a challenge. I personally don't want to handicap myself in the energy department if I don't have to. Most guys I know will not pass up a 100 yard shot with a ball at 100 yards. The deer looks close, the sighting is capable enough, but if they are shooting a round ball, that is not a humane shot.

The minnie ball was introduced in the civil war and gave the North a huge advantage because they could get them in mass quantities (due to the industrialized North) to their troops who could shoot them further than the guys shooting round balls. I only mention that because if we want to truly be "traditional" then we need to only shoot guns/bullets designs made before about 1860 and keep our shots close. Many of the Civil War rifles were capable of killing beyond 200 yards.

Just my opinion. Yours is welcome, too.

Well said Robby. My UL 1 should be here today. Looking forward to going out to the range and letting them fly!

 

[robby denning]

keep us posted Matt, I want to hear about you range sessions. I'll do the same. Mine aren't here yet, tic toc, tic toc.

 

[MattEastman]

My UL 1 Spritzers arrived today and I will tell you, they are devastating! Shot a pretty good group with them out to 100. I placed my target over a 7" wide railroad tie and the conical blew right through it leaving a huge hole. I was able to locate one of them afterwards and the bullet mushroomed extremely well.

 

[robby denning]

good to hear Matt.

How much powder?

Did they group as well as the round balls?

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

Robby and Matt....what lube will you be using with the UL1 conicals? I have always used pre-lubed bullets and need to decide what to go with.

 

[MattEastman]

UH, I had some old Bore Butter that I used on the UL1. Seemed to work fine.

 

[robby denning]

Same, Bore Butter.
I haven't put a conical in this new 45 barrel, only sabots. May not need lube, just depends on the barrel/bullet combo. I start with lube, but can usually tell if I really need it. The UL1s have knurling that can be more forgiving to load than bullets without. As soon as mine get here, I'll know.

How long did yours take Matt? I ordered mine on June 8.

 

[MattEastman]

It took longer than I would've liked. Infact, I started to think it did not process. I did not like the wait. I still might try some Powerbelts from Cabelas.

 

[robby denning]

I noticed the charge just hit my debit card today. Guess Manitoba is a long ways out and Canadians are a little socialist you know

You might like those Powerbelts. I couldn't get them to shoot, but were easy to load. Keep us posted.

 

[MattEastman]

Haha. The UL1's are a little hard to load. But shoot good groups and cause some damage, thats for sure!

 

[MattEastman]

Well folks, I blew my knew out a week ago and will have to wait another year on hunting the Colorado high country. Damn! Just a stupid accident on a dirt bike and this is where I'm at today.

 

[philw]

Oh man, that really blows, sorry to hear it. Well, look at it this way, you'll have extra motivation for next year.

 

[robby denning]

MAAAAAAAAATTT!
noooooooo!
That is the worst news. When I saw the post come up, I thought "great, he's back and getting ready for Colorado."

So bummed to read the news.

Well....
I guess you now have a year to "tune" the muzzleloader. Had you decided on a load yet?

 

[Foldem]

That's a really tough break Matt. I'm guessing your WY season is out of the question too?

 

[johnson taxidermy]

Have fun with it Matt. My best was a 160" DIY Public land. 30 yds with a Maxi ball. Its a rush for sure.