Traditional muzzleloader...cleaning between shots?

[Legend]

I am new to the muzzloader world so go easy on me. I am trying to work up a load using 777 ffg and No Excuses 460 grain bullets in a 50cal pedersoli with a 1:24 twist. Honestly i am struggling to get a decent group at 100yds. Been in the neighborhood of 12 inches. My process to date has been to shoot, run a wet patch, then about 8 dry patches, and then fire a blank percussion. Is this too much cleaning?

Thanks!

 

[HighUintas]

You might be leading up the barrel alot depending on how much 777 you're putting in there and if the lube on that bullet sucks. Is that a pure lead bullet?

 

[Legend]

Pure lead bullett that is prelubed. Tell me more about leading up the barrel. How/when does that occur? I have tried from 70 to 100 grains by volume with sumilar results...not awesome.

 

[HighUintas]

Shooting cast bullets that are not gas checked (a copper or aluminum base that is crimped into the base of the bullet) is a huge learning curve.

Leading is where the lead is stripped off the bullet and coats the bore, the same way a copper jacket does in a rough rifle bore. But with lead, it's much more detrimental to accuracy because it's so soft.

A pure lead bullet such as this one doesn't have enough compressive strength to withstand a large pressure spike. Also, pushing the bullet too fast for how hard the allow is can cause leading. So if you jam 100gr of fff 777 in there, I bet it would lead the barrel quickly. Until you remove all the lead, it doesn't matter what charge you put in, it won't be accurate.

So, get some choreboy pure copper scrubbers and pull a bit off, wrap it around a brush and run it back and forth through the barrel a lot of times. That will get almost or all of the lead out. It might take 20-50 strokes depending on how bad it is. It should be a tight fit when you put it into the bore.

After it's clean, start at the very low end. Not sure where you should start because I don't have a ML. Maybe 50-70gr?

With pure lead projectiles that aren't patched l, the upper speed limit is usually considered to be in the ball park of 800-900fps.

You would have much better luck shooting a patched roundball so you don't have to deal with the leading

 

[HighUintas]

Or find some copper ML bullets or copper/sabot ML bullets.

I think even with 70gr, you're probably pushing 1500fps, which is way to fast for a pure lead unpatched bullet.

Get on castboolits forum and ask for some advice there too. Those guys are lead and ML nuts

 

[HighUintas]

Also, read the articles here http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm

 

[marksman1941]

Hi! I think I can help. I grew up on traditional muzzleloaders, and that’s my primarily hunting rifle most years.

first off, is that the only bullet you’ve tried? A 460 grain in a 50 cal is awfully heavy. Even with a 1:24 twist, I doubt you can get that thing to a velocity it’ll stabilize at without liquefying the bottom of the bullet and leading your barrel all to hell.

As someone else mentioned, a patched round ball eliminates the leading issue, but it also really decreases killing capability. If you’re target shooting, absolutely use a ball. For hunting, a slug is better. Depending on your state you might have restrictions (my state only allows lead bullets for example, no copper or tipped bullets).

honestly for your twist rate and powder charges, I would drop to a 350gr maxi ball (if you want to shoot lead) and start at 75gr. Shoot groups in 5 gr increments up to about 110. We used to take a big roll of butcher paper and lay it on the ground for like 20’ in front of the rifle, and when you hit max charge you’ll start seeing unburnt powder landing on the butcher paper after each shot.

Hope this helps. Feel free to message me if you like.

 

[Wrench]

I'm shooting a vortek and find 85gr 777fffg and a felt wad work well for me. I am shooting the same bullet (503's) in mine and it too is 24 twist. These shoot substantially better than powerbelts.

 

[marksman1941]

To answer your initial question, you won't over clean the rifle. Shooting slugs I'll usually start clean, shoot 3 or so until it gets sticky to load, then run a single wet patch, 2 dry patches, then right back to loading.

Modern inline rifles need a lot less cleaning, but the old iron boys (even new production) need more. But, it doesn't have to be squeaky clean for each shot. At least I haven't seen a need for that in any of my rifles.

I do think you should look at dropping the bullet to a max 385gr or smaller. They'll stabilize a lot better.

 

[HighUintas]

Also, make sure your lead bullet is 0.001 over bore size. That will help prevent leading. For example, the bore in my 45-90 is right around 0.4575. so I shoot a 0.459-0.460 lead bullet

 

[CoHiCntry]

I haven’t shot T7 & big conicals in a few years… but when I did, I would shoot three times before cleaning. My thinking is that I won’t have time to clean between shots in the field, so I want the best load I can get shooting three times before cleaning. Pick the nipple too.

You didn’t say if you’ve tried other bullet & powder combinations? If not, keep trying loads at 50 yards until you find the one that shoots the best then move back to 100 yards.

I would start with 70 grains of powder, then go to 80, then 90 & so on. If nothing seems to be working, think about changing bullets or powder or both.

Edit: my bad just saw where you’ve tried different powder amounts from 70 to 100. I’d be trying a different bullet at this point. Or maybe switch to real black powder?

 

[FLATHEAD]

Felt wads between powder and bullet.

 

[Legend]

Also, read the articles here http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm

Thanks for all the great advice!

 

[Legend]

Felt wads between powder and bullet.

I will add these to the trials. Thanks

 

[Legend]

I haven’t shot T7 & big conicals in a few years… but when I did, I would shoot three times before cleaning. My thinking is that I won’t have time to clean between shots in the field, so I want the best load I can get shooting three times before cleaning. Pick the nipple too.

You didn’t say if you’ve tried other bullet & powder combinations? If not, keep trying loads at 50 yards until you find the one that shoots the best then move back to 100 yards.

I would start with 70 grains of powder, then go to 80, then 90 & so on. If nothing seems to be working, think about changing bullets or powder or both.

Edit: my bad just saw where you’ve tried different powder amounts from 70 to 100. I’d be trying a different bullet at this point. Or maybe switch to real black powder?

Thanks fir the input. I just bought some different diameter and some 420 grains. If they don't fly i will try a different bullett and probably lighter weight.

 

[CoHiCntry]

I will add these to the trials. Thanks

I used felt wads too when I was shooting T7 & conicals. I wouldn’t think these would be hard to find but who knows with how hard everything has been to get lately… If you can’t find any or wanna try just a few, I have some .54 & .58. I can throw a few in an envelope & send to you. Using an oversized wad can get good results.

FWIW… I know most get good results & really like the No Excuses bullets but I never got great results with them. The Hornaday Great Plains in 425gr. Is what I used.

 

[HighUintas]

Should able to find felt wads at buffalo arms co or track of the wolf

 

[Wrench]

I made my own wads with a 1/2" gasket punch and some felt from the bearing store.

 

[FrontierGander]

8 dry patches? good grief! 2 or 3 max in my guns when swabbing between shots. You just need a damp patch, but soaking wet.

 

[Legend]

I used felt wads too when I was shooting T7 & conicals. I wouldn’t think these would be hard to find but who knows with how hard everything has been to get lately… If you can’t find any or wanna try just a few, I have some .54 & .58. I can throw a few in an envelope & send to you. Using an oversized wad can get good results.

FWIW… I know most get good results & really like the No Excuses bullets but I never got great results with them. The Hornaday Great Plains in 425gr. Is what I used.

Thanks for the offer! I have some 54 wads i can try. I will keep testing but i might try different bullets as suggested.