Toray vs. Goretex rain gear

[Romo]

Kuiu is using Toray for it's Chugach and Yukon rain gear. Sitka is using Goretex, as is the top gear makers for mountaineering (Arc'teryx, Patagonia), who use Goretex for their hardshells. The top fly fishing rain gear is probably Simms, and they use Gortex for their rain gear too.

While Kuiu is the first to bring Toray to the hunting market, I guess the $64,000 question is why aren't any of these established companies use Toray and still prefer Goretex?

 

[Aron Snyder]

Gore will drop any company that uses other fabrics.....

So if Cabelas used eVent material on something (the best in my opinion) gore would drop them for any other products.

 

[Romo]

Well, Jason at Kuiu says he got the idea for Toray from Patagonia designers, but it's curious that Patagonia doesn't use Toray. And, Simms uses Toray in some waders.

My question was prompted because I bought a Sitka Delta Wading Jacket for duck hunting, which I really like and performs in some nasty duck weather. I also have a Kuiu Yukon Jacket and Pants that I bought for a May 2015 Kodiak bear hunt, but I've since heard some mixed reviews about the Kuiu Yukon series. I'm second guessing about whether I should make the switch to Sitka Stormfront.

 

[KMT]

Gore will drop any company that uses other fabrics.....

So if Cabelas used eVent material on something (the best in my opinion) gore would drop them for any other products.

Yup. Gore plays a dirty little game to keep its market share. They pressured REI into dropping all of its REI brand clothing that used eVent.

 

[colonel00]

. I also have a Kuiu Yukon Jacket and Pants that I bought for a May 2015 Kodiak bear hunt, but I've since heard some mixed reviews about the Kuiu Yukon series. I'm second guessing about whether I should make the switch to Sitka Stormfront.

There have been many debates about rain gear and I believe there was even a pretty thorough review done last winter here on Rokslide. I haven't worn or tested every piece of breathable rain gear out there but I fully expect them all to fail at some point. How much actual backpacking will you be doing on your hunt? I ask because you might look at Helly Hansen's Impertech line but it is "heavy" and doesn't breathe well.

 

[Elkfitness]

Aron, is eVent better for the waterproofness or the breathability? Or both?

 

[Aron Snyder]

Both

 

[russ_outdoors]

+1 on eVent. I haven't tried the Kuiu stuff or Neoshell, but lots of GT over the years. IMHE eVent breaths noticeably better than GT, but isn't as windproof.

Here's a good read about GT's tactics to maintain market control:
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/Insane-in-the-Membrane.html

 

[Aron Snyder]

+1 on eVent. I haven't tried the Kuiu stuff or Neoshell, but lots of GT over the years. IMHE eVent breaths noticeably better than GT, but isn't as windproof.

Here's a good read about GT's tactics to maintain market control:
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/Insane-in-the-Membrane.html

I would say that depends on what type of eVent and GTX fabrics you're comparing as well.

The lighter GTX fabric is far less waterproof then a comparable eVent fabric from what I've tested, but heavier fabrics from both companies could be different.

 

[charvey9]

I think there is also some brand recognition involved. Gore-tex is pretty much a household name, even if you aren't a heavy user of thier products or a hard core outdoorsmen. There is a likely marketing advantage in using Gore-tex over less known materials. We are the odd bunch who enjoy debating the merits of varios breathable/waterproof fabrics, but your average joe hunter or hiker has probably never heard of Toray, eVent, or Windtex. They have heard of Gore-tex, and I'll bet side-by-side in a department store Gore-tex outsells any of the others.

I think KUIU is in a really interesting market position though, and doesn't really need to worry about the retail segment. They have a pretty specific and loyal customer base.

For what its worth, I owned a Sitka Downpour set for a few years and really liked it. It was my first high end rain gear set, and kept me hunting through some nasty stuff even though it was easy to overheat at times. Last year I switched to KUIU, and have liked it alot. Going on my second season with a Chugach and Yukon set I have no complaints, and they breath better than than Sitka gear I had.

I have an eVent bivy, and agree that seems to be a really good material. Very little, if any, condensation collects in my bivy overnight.

Kenetrek uses Windtex in their boots, and it is the only item I've ever owned with Windtex. After a season in the boots they are still the most waterproof and breathable I've ever owned.

 

[moxford]

Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with any of the above or make clothing, I'm just fascinated by technical outdoors gear and do way too much pointless research. =)

Well, Jason at Kuiu says he got the idea for Toray from Patagonia designers, but it's curious that Patagonia doesn't use Toray. And, Simms uses Toray in some waders.

Patagonia does use Toray - look for the "FullRange" insulation such as in their new Nano Air.
Arc'teryx uses Toray for their coated down as well. (So does Kuiu.)

Another "secret" is that eVent is just a laminate, just like GT is. It's the bonding to the facing materials and quality of construction which separates the various manufacturers using the same laminate structure. Also, if you want to use GT you must state "Gore-Tex" and pass their quality controls but if you use eVent then they (General Electric (GE), the owners of eVent) are more liberal, both about naming and quality. As an example, Mountain Hardware bonds the eVent laminate themselves and calls it "Dry-Q Elite" without having to say "made with eVent" or anything like that.

Lastly, saying "eVent is better than GT" is hard to qualify because of the different processes, facing and "real world" applications in the field. You can measure the laminate head-to-head, but once it's bonded and in a piece of clothing you really need to compare them on a company-by-company or piece-by-piece basis.

I have a MH DQ.E as well as a Kuiu Yukon with DerzimaxNX. While the MH is a few years old the Yukon is new so I haven't done much testing with it yet but both fabrics have been phenomenal. I usually snow-ski in a light long-sleeve merino, a light vest and the MH jacket and it's been great.

Head to head, the fit and finish on both are excellent. The Yukon wins for noise, comfort, larger hood, and stretch. My particular MH has a snow-skirt though, which is great for killing drafts, and was cheaper, but doesn't fit a ski-helmet (or my climbing helmet.)

In terms of breathability I'd put them about the same and the wind will rip right through either one. (Yes, even the DerzimaxNX-based Yukon ... and while it's a monolithic membrane which isn't supposed to pass wind ... it sure feels like it. If you're exerting it's great. If you're static then it's good to have another layer available.

I'm sitting here in a climate-controlled office (my watch has been sitting on the desk and says it's about 75F with a cotton t-shirt and a light hoodie on under the Yukon (zipped up to my collarbone) and I am comfortable. There's almost zero insulation to the Yukon (huge plus) and with any other sweatshirt/softshell/jacket I'd be uncomfortable/overheating for sure.

Yesterday at about 55deg in a drizzle I had a t-shirt, a light polartec vest, a medium-heavy weight polar-fleece pullover and the Yukon on while going up and down a ladder cleaning out the gutters on a friend's house. I did start to overheat but, really, that's way too many layers to start with. Had to test it though! =)

Best part about the DerzimaxNX ... it will not wet out. Period.

Kuiu's Yukon set cost me a lot of money but it's beautiful high-end gear (easily on par with my Arc'teryx) with proven tech and, thus far, it's performed as expected. We'll see how it holds up once I put a pack on but, unlike "hole-y stuff" (GT, eVent, NeoShell) the Yukon shouldn't soak through.

-mox

 

[JP100]

anyone know anything about "AEGIS" fabric?
Swazi was using Gore Tex but developed their own new fabric.
I have yet to use any of it. Wonder if it is used by anyone else??

Or "Hydrotech" by Huntech which boast's breathable rating of 20,500 gm/24h and a waterproof rating of 23,500mm.

So much gear...so little money......

 

[rileybassman]

I'm not a gore tex fanboy, but it has served me well thorughout the years... my old military Gore-Tex Rainwear is my favorite hard wearing/fishing/"outside working don't care about clothes" and it keeps me dry... have a marmot minimalist that has goretex and it is my favorite rain coat... I think my lowa Tibets also have goretex... point being, I don't try and avoid it if I like a product that has it... but I don't think it is the end all, beat all rain protection either.

I have noticed, that when it is truely raining (Live in PNW, so I know what real rain is) there isn't a lot that will keep you 100% absolutely dry... for an entire day... sure, a good rain coat will keep torso mostly dry and rain pants will keep legs mostly dry, but drips up sleeves, face, gloves etc... there are weak points, so if I am steelheading in December (Like I did a couple weeks ago in rain, sleet, and snow), or brushbusting in October I just accept that I will come out 90-95% dry but will likely have some damp sleeves, socks, face, belt line etc at times and dress accordingly with appropriate base wear etc.

Just standing or sitting at a soccer game or something, I can almost always come out near 100% dry, but not when doing something active.

Maybe this isn't true for everyone idk

 

[jfruechtel]

Aren't both Simms and Sitka owned by Gore? Wouldn't that be a good reason for them to be using gore Tex?

 

[bobhunts]

Good read Russ.

 

[xBobby]

Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with any of the above or make clothing, I'm just fascinated by technical outdoors gear and do way too much pointless research. =)



Patagonia does use Toray - look for the "FullRange" insulation such as in their new Nano Air.
Arc'teryx uses Toray for their coated down as well. (So does Kuiu.)

Another "secret" is that eVent is just a laminate, just like GT is. It's the bonding to the facing materials and quality of construction which separates the various manufacturers using the same laminate structure. Also, if you want to use GT you must state "Gore-Tex" and pass their quality controls but if you use eVent then they (General Electric (GE), the owners of eVent) are more liberal, both about naming and quality. As an example, Mountain Hardware bonds the eVent laminate themselves and calls it "Dry-Q Elite" without having to say "made with eVent" or anything like that.

Lastly, saying "eVent is better than GT" is hard to qualify because of the different processes, facing and "real world" applications in the field. You can measure the laminate head-to-head, but once it's bonded and in a piece of clothing you really need to compare them on a company-by-company or piece-by-piece basis.

I have a MH DQ.E as well as a Kuiu Yukon with DerzimaxNX. While the MH is a few years old the Yukon is new so I haven't done much testing with it yet but both fabrics have been phenomenal. I usually snow-ski in a light long-sleeve merino, a light vest and the MH jacket and it's been great.

Head to head, the fit and finish on both are excellent. The Yukon wins for noise, comfort, larger hood, and stretch. My particular MH has a snow-skirt though, which is great for killing drafts, and was cheaper, but doesn't fit a ski-helmet (or my climbing helmet.)

In terms of breathability I'd put them about the same and the wind will rip right through either one. (Yes, even the DerzimaxNX-based Yukon ... and while it's a monolithic membrane which isn't supposed to pass wind ... it sure feels like it. If you're exerting it's great. If you're static then it's good to have another layer available.

I'm sitting here in a climate-controlled office (my watch has been sitting on the desk and says it's about 75F with a cotton t-shirt and a light hoodie on under the Yukon (zipped up to my collarbone) and I am comfortable. There's almost zero insulation to the Yukon (huge plus) and with any other sweatshirt/softshell/jacket I'd be uncomfortable/overheating for sure.

Yesterday at about 55deg in a drizzle I had a t-shirt, a light polartec vest, a medium-heavy weight polar-fleece pullover and the Yukon on while going up and down a ladder cleaning out the gutters on a friend's house. I did start to overheat but, really, that's way too many layers to start with. Had to test it though! =)

Best part about the DerzimaxNX ... it will not wet out. Period.

Kuiu's Yukon set cost me a lot of money but it's beautiful high-end gear (easily on par with my Arc'teryx) with proven tech and, thus far, it's performed as expected. We'll see how it holds up once I put a pack on but, unlike "hole-y stuff" (GT, eVent, NeoShell) the Yukon shouldn't soak through.

-mox

Has your stance on this changed in the last 7 years? do you still consider Kuiu to be on par with Arc'teryx? im stuck between Kuiu and Sitka.

 

[2531usmc]

So reading through this, what exactly is toray?

I understand HH is a rubberized material and GT (and its imitators) has micro holes to let vapor escape and keep rain from coming in.

But toray? Is it just a very tight weave or is it more of an impervious barrier like HH.

 

[fngTony]

So reading through this, what exactly is toray?

I understand HH is a rubberized material and GT (and its imitators) has micro holes to let vapor escape and keep rain from coming in.

But toray? Is it just a very tight weave or is it more of an impervious barrier like HH.

Micro hole laminate

 

[2531usmc]

So it’s basically another variant of GT? Is that right?

 

[xBobby]

So it’s basically another variant of GT? Is that right?

Thats what im wondering as well.