Tips and gear advice on learning to shoot longer distances.

[Castle Rock]

S2H is the only course i've heard of that provides such a thing. Are there others?

Yep
That is basically unobtainable
Go to a range and watch the quiet blokes who don’t say much and check out what they are doing

 

[CMF]

Can someone link the 100 yard drill thread?

 

[Jimbee]

Can someone link the 100 yard drill thread?

Thread 'Equipment versus practice posts and Rifle practice/shooting'

Mar 31, 2020

This isn’t in response to anyone I particular, but there is an up tick in the amount of “I want a XXXX distance hunting rifle” traffic the last few months. I am getting a lot of questions relating to this, which I do not mind helping, but thought a public post might help answer some questions. It’s an attempt to get to actually using your rifles.


People online tend to act like 600/800/whatever yards is a rifle, cartridge and BDC scope purchase away. When someone asks for advice, or says I’m building an -insert whatever rifle/cartridge you want-, people are discussing hardware not...

• Formidilosus

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[eric1115]

You're right, factory ammo will work fine. I missed the fact that he doesn't reload, but what I said isn't nonsense. The 75+ gr bullets are seated super deep to fit within SAAMI OAL, and most will be a mile from the lands, which is not ideal at all. The 73 ELD-M is designed to work within SAAMI OAL, but it's also not nearly as aerodynamic as the 75 ELD-M, which exceeds 2.400" OAL when seated out of the case and near the lands. I.e., they're hamstrung at SAAMI OAL.

I think it's nonsense to suggest that SAAMI OAL is a significant handicap to getting good training value out of a Tikka .223 or that the rifle is "severely hamstrung". Run the numbers between a 75 ELDM at 2850 vs a 77 TMK at 2750. I'm doubtful that you'll get 100 more FPS no matter how long you seat, but even at that it's about 0.2 mil difference at 600 in a 10mph full value crosswind.

Nothing? No, not nothing, but holding 1.2 vs 1.4 is not "severely hamstrung". I don't have a WEZ calculator, but would guess the difference in hit rate is tiny switching from a "hamstrung" 2.26" 77TMK to a 2.4+" 75ELDM.

I'm definitely not against using slipperier bullets and longer magazines (I load 109 ELDM's at 2.95 in my .243AI), but it's silly to say that someone needs to "make sure" to get aftermarket mags and hand load bullets that don't work at standard mag length in order to use a .223 effectively. Sorry to make a big deal of this, but for 98% of people in OP's position, it just muddies the water and causes hesitation and confusion. Most of us, if we're honest, would be better served by 10 hours per month of training on decent factory ammo than by 7 hours of training and 3 hours in the reloading room making the sleekest high BC low SD rounds possible.

 

[Jordan Smith]

I think it's nonsense to suggest that SAAMI OAL is a significant handicap to getting good training value out of a Tikka .223 or that the rifle is "severely hamstrung". Run the numbers between a 75 ELDM at 2850 vs a 77 TMK at 2750. I'm doubtful that you'll get 100 more FPS no matter how long you seat, but even at that it's about 0.2 mil difference at 600 in a 10mph full value crosswind.

Nothing? No, not nothing, but holding 1.2 vs 1.4 is not "severely hamstrung". I don't have a WEZ calculator, but would guess the difference in hit rate is tiny switching from a "hamstrung" 2.26" 77TMK to a 2.4+" 75ELDM.

I'm definitely not against using slipperier bullets and longer magazines (I load 109 ELDM's at 2.95 in my .243AI), but it's silly to say that someone needs to "make sure" to get aftermarket mags and hand load bullets that don't work at standard mag length in order to use a .223 effectively. Sorry to make a big deal of this, but for 98% of people in OP's position, it just muddies the water and causes hesitation and confusion. Most of us, if we're honest, would be better served by 10 hours per month of training on decent factory ammo than by 7 hours of training and 3 hours in the reloading room making the sleekest high BC low SD rounds possible.

You miss the point. It's not about the extra velocity. I agree about that being insignificant when looking at the bigger picture. The "hamstrung" part is about limiting seating depth options when optimizing rifle/load precision. What happens if the rifle won't shoot with the bullet jumping 0.200-300"? I happen to load for multiple Tikkas in .223, and I've seen this exact scenario. These rifles shoot many high-BC bullets substantially better with the bullet seated into, or close to, the lands.

The OP may not handload now, but that doesn't mean that he won't in the future, and having the ability to optimize seating depth without being limited to jumping the heavy, high-BC bullets 0.150+" at max mag length can be a significant advantage.

I never said anything about SAAMI OAL being a significant handicap to getting good training value. Not even close. You can get good training value out of the rifle with 55 gr bulk ammo, too, but that doesn't change the fact that the capability of the rifle is often hamstrung by severely limiting OAL options. Guys talk about spending all their time training instead of handloading, but do you actually do that? How many guys do? Many of us like to handload and optimize our ammo (which can often be done in small windows of time when shooting/training may not be practical), we also like to shoot, and we like to hunt, but the timing and opportunities for these three activities often don't completely overlap.

Using aftermarket mags isn't difficult, nor is it a big deal. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill, here. The benefit-to-cost ratio of using aftermarket mags and opening up lots of new options in mag-fed COAL is often very high.

The easy button is to simply get a Tikka T3x CTR in .223 (I'm in the process of trading for one today, in fact), which allows COAL of ~2.6" and opens doors if the OP decides later to handload the long, sleek bullets.

 

[eric1115]

You're right, factory ammo will work fine. I missed the fact that he doesn't reload, but what I said isn't nonsense. The 75+ gr bullets are seated super deep to fit within SAAMI OAL, and most will be a mile from the lands, which is not ideal at all. The 73 ELD-M is designed to work within SAAMI OAL, but it's also not nearly as aerodynamic as the 75 ELD-M, which exceeds 2.400" OAL when seated out of the case and near the lands. I.e., they're hamstrung at SAAMI OAL.

I re-read your first post, and I'll offer an apology for coming in hot like that. I thought you were saying that the utility of the rifle is greatly hindered by the mag length and that shooting AR/2.25 length ammo was severely limiting for the gun.

It is true that if you want to shoot 75 or 80 ELD's a longer mag is more or less required, and I conflated that with you saying that those bullets are something you want to make sure to be able to use.

I'm also in some ways guilty of not taking my own advice, I had a perfectly fine .243 punched out to AI and went longer mag on that rifle. I do hand load almost everything I shoot, including higher volume .223 practice ammo. I I really like having a big can of 77OTM that fits the gas guns and the bolt guns (and runs essentially identical velocity/dope out of all of them that it matters on). And a smaller can of 77TMK that works perfectly out of everything as well. I ran the numbers because it is absolutely just like me to take a simple system and complicate it trying to squeeze a little more juice out, but the 75/80 grain stuff just didn't seem worth the hassle when I looked at them side by side.

Anyway, sorry I jumped to conclusions! The tikka .223 is such a great training (and hunting) tool, I just wanted to make sure folks know that they can just run the thing and don't have to worry about changing stuff to make it work.