Thoughts On Primers?

[MRidge]

Before I go into much detail here, I'd appreciate some feedback on what ones thoughts are on the two middle primers - what caused this?

1) All loads were the same ( Not intentionally changed that is )
2) One of the cratered primers was the first shot to the right. The other landed in the cluster of four.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

I used google to find this on another forum. Hopefully others can chime in as well.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3793811.0

 

[Hunter6]

I would say the primers in the middle were seated to deep. Just a guess though.

 

[rayporter]

if there is a hole through the primer the term is 'blanking'

pressure causes a blanked primer. some primers are softer than others and some have thinner metal in the cups, both of which contribute to a blanked primer. the larger the hole around the firing pin is the easier it is for a piece of the primer to punch through. this piece of the primer is also still around somewhere inside your bolt and will cause a misfire someday.

switching to a stronger primer may help and it may be necessary, if the load is not particularly hot. if you must run warm to hot loads you may need to reduce the size of the firing pin hole by one method or another. most folks find a stronger or thicker primer and reduce the load.

if you are serious you send the bolt off to be fixed.

 

[roknHS]

Could be a variety of causes. Hard to tell from limited information. Top 3 would be...........
Loads were creating excessive pressure.
Deformed firing pin.
Loose primer pocket.

Certainly something to investigate and find the cause of.

 

[KMD]

Brass says .17Rem, so I'm assuming that's what your shooting?

Send your bolt to Greg Tannel @ Gre-Tan Rifles and have your firing pin bushed.
Well worth the price, and turn around time is fast enough.
Problem solved...

PS, Greg built my .17Predator (.17-223 Improved) and I run HOT loads with no issues.
Also recommend using Rem 7 1/2 primers for small caliber hotrods, due to thicker cups...

Good luck!

 

[MRidge]

Thanks for the input everyone!

The one piece I don't know, is which box I grabbed to go sight the gun in with. Further info now........ The gun has been sitting for years - probably 20+ and has been in my family since purchased new in the early 70's. I've only dug it out due to a P-dog trip coming up over Easter weekend, and thought it would be a great round for my 12yr old kid to get some trigger time behind.
"I think" the brass had been primed and just sitting with all the rest of my stuff. There were primed cases, and some unprimed. I loaded about 200 rounds for it @ 21.6 grains of IMR 3031 and the original 25r Honady bullet, which is about a half a grain under max if I remember correctly. Long story shot, it's the only load that has ever been used in this firearm. One of my concerns was the 8lb can of powder that I was finally able to finish off, that again was probably 25yrs old. ( No reddish color or rancid off smell - it looked normal, smelled normal ) The only primers I use are Remington Bench Rest or mostly CCI BR 4's for small rifle and 2's for large rifle. I have yet to see any of my supplies go bad here in the dry CO atmosphere, but realize there is always a first.

I doubt the rifle has 1500 rounds down the tube, as it just hasn't seen the use. I will say the bolt closed a little harder on a couple rounds, but not "hard / hard" - and I don't remember if these were the rounds I'm concerned about. ( would make sense though ) When I resize, I'll check the pockets closely.

I've had Greg at Gre-Tan do work for me, to include sleeving the firing pin hole etc on several rifles, and yes, it's worth every penny. Not that I wouldn't consider it on this one, but being an early 70's model like many of my other 700's, it doesn't see the same issue many of the newer ones do. I'm from the western slope of CO and drive by Greg's place frequently. It's too easy to stop in with just a little more work on this or that

 

[tstowater]

before you do anything else, I would try a different powder just in case. The powder should not be the issue. I have 5 17 Remingtons in Model 700 and have never had this issue. Was the brass new? If not, you may want to make sure that it doesn't need to be trimmed for some reason. Hard closing bolts are usually an indication of a length issue somewhere or a dirty gun, but I am not the reloading expert that others are.

Hope you get it shooting as it makes an awesome p-dog gun, especially for a 12 year old. When my son was 12, we found that the stock was too long and my FIL wanted to hack off a BDL stock. I told him he was nuts and I bought a Boyds for him to shorten instead. That was a good idea and kept it in case my daughter wanted to use it. Back to the BDL for now as the boy doesn't need the shortened stock anymore.

 

[wpwarren]

I would guess that the primer pockets are loose, but as mentioned above there are other possible causes as well

 

[mtswampfox]

Speaking of pdogs. Went one year after a primer shortage made me use cci instead of winchester in my 700. 223. Was at max load with aa powder ,forget the number (2230?). Was getting holes in primers like every third or fourth shot. Could feel puffs of air on my eyeball too. Took a small white towel and covered the bolt shrowd and kept on shooting. No issues with case seperation or hard bolt opening. When home and some range time discovered could have dropped two full grains of powder for same performance as winchester primers. Lesson learned,change any part of the formula check for outcome

 

[KMD]

Yep.
Switching primers could result in a pressure increase & viola, all of a sudden you've got a potentially dangerous situation on your hands.
Heck, even letting a case 'bake' in a hot chamber could cause a small caliber round to become unsafe! That could happen quite easily on a hot p-dog town under a late spring Sun. IMHO, 17s & 20s in general need paid extra special attention about that kinda stuff, as their tiny case capacity is ever more sensitive to pressure spiking.

Anymore, I'd never not have a small caliber rifle's bolt bushed. Just makes Life so much easier...

 

[MRidge]

I've been able to narrow it down to the box I didn't put primers in, but have been primed only for years. My kid put about 150 rounds through it last weekend putting the hurting on a bunch of p-dogs in Wyoming.
The two boxes I loaded were all consistent & looked good.

KMD
Mind me asking what powder & bullet you're using in your .17 Predator?
I used up all the IMR3031 that's always been used in this gun. I have about 1500 Hornady 25gr hollow points, but thinking I want to try some Bergers? The kid loved shooting it, so I want to keep him after it.

Thanks again

 

[tstowater]

Mridge, I was using 414 with my 17s but went to 2520 after I bought a bunch of ammo with a 17 remington. Checked the loads for weight and then for accuracy with the hornady 25 grain hp. Found no reason to go back to the Berger or v-Maxs or 414. I haven't used 3031. Don't know what your expectations are of a 17 remington, but much more than 300 yards and you may want more gun like a 204 with 32s or 40s. Still very manageable for a kid.

 

[KMD]

Sure MRidge, I'm loading Ramshot BigGame in the .17P w/Rem 7 1/2 primers. A 30gr Kindler Gold is running 4085fps from a 24" Lilja. If you feel like experimenting, both Todd Kindler and Chan Nagel make custom .172 cal. bullets that seem to work real well. I just stuck with the Kindlers cuz they worked from the git-go...

Glad to hear you've made some progress in diagnosing the issue you had!
Have fun & good shootin'...

 

[MRidge]

tstowater -thank you, It's definitely hard to let the 1500 or so 25gr Hornady bullets I have sit and look for something else. The little experience I do have with this round, I've found to have more runners than I like. ( Coyotes, jack rabbits, p-dogs, etc ) I don't save pelts, so my main go to round has always been my 22-250. I'd keep the 17 in the two to three hundred yard range and would be happy with that.

KMD - Thank you Sir for the additional bullet mfg info. I'll get the cleaning rod out and check the twist rate, as I'd really like to shoot the 30's, be it Bergers or Kindlers. I suspect the point opening is greater on those than that of the Hornady options, and I certainly don't mind playing and figuring out a load. The safe is full and have loads for everything short of this one now. I use a lot of Viht N140, and see that is also an option in the Berger manual. I've never used RamShot in anything, so will attempt to confine myself to options I have on hand first. ( Seems to never work though )

 

[KMD]

MRidge, you're welcome!
If you've got a 1:10, don't be disheartened! Chan Nagel offers a 25gr bullet in a few different meplat configs that would spin in a 1:10. Maybe give him a shout? Pretty sure he'll be able to steer you toward the right bullet for your specific application. I have a friend up North who is a prolific pelt hunter, and he just loves the Nagel 30gr from a .17-204. Mr. Nagel doesn't have a website, but:
208-267-2860
[email protected]

Todd Kindler also makes a 25gr Gold that would be fine from a 1:10" twist barrel. His 27gr would be marginal in a 1:10, might get away with it if your high elevation air pressure out there in beautiful Colorado allows for it?

To be honest, going with a slight lighter bullet just might be a better compliment to the case capacity of the .17Rem. The 30s really shine in the bigger .17 variants where they can be pushed up over 4K. But I betcha a well built 25-27gr bullet from your .17Rem will make for a smile on your face, and a bad day for a coyote...
http://www.woodchuckden.com/17cal_boat_tail.aspx


Good luck & have fun!

 

[KMD]

One a side note, regarding Kindler Golds...
Hope this link works, its a clip of my friend Dave shooting his own .17Predator loaded with 30gr Golds. His experience was the inspiration for having Greg build me one, too.
Enjoy!
http://rmvh.com/Movies/VS4Intro.wmv

 

[tstowater]

The factory 700 17's will have either a 1-10 or 1-9 twist. Early ones would have been a 1-10 and based on the pictures that you showed, I would guess that there is a reasonable chance that you have an early with the 1-10. I'm guessing that KMD is thinking the same way. I've shot the 30 grain Bergers and found that some of the guns are unable to stabilize the bullets, even with the 1-9 twist. I've not had a problem with the 25 grainers of any type. I've learned to stay away from Kindler's website as it is just a great source of more calibers and bullets that I should have. Neat stuff and my safe is way overfull.

As you have found out, the 17's aren't near as forgiving as the 22-250, but they do have there place as long as you understand their limitations.

 

[rayporter]

if this link shows up it is interesting.

and i can put you in touch with at least one person that does not believe the federal specs printed here. he claims all federal small rifle primers are the same thickness. i disagree but that is not the point.

have you talked to todd recently? he used to live real close to my place in ohio and i havent heard of him for a while.

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

 

[MRidge]

I have a stable (safe) full of Rem700's, it's just this .17 has more sentimental value to me. My mother used to shoot it, and shot it well when we used to do a lot of whistle-pig hunting. She bought if for my dad, and the matching big brother to this .17 is a 7mag. Identical twins short of the recoil pad on the 7mag.
It's the only small / sporter barrel small caliber rifle I really have, as the others are late 70's, early 80's Varminters. I like the fact my twelve year old and wife enjoy shooting it now that I've pulled it and knocked the dust off.

I did read Remington did the early versions in a 1:10. For the time being I'm going to run with the 25gr Hornady and shoot them up. I did pull out a new box of Remington brass tonight, prep'd & loaded with N140. I'm guessing the new brass dad purchased around the late 70's as well, as the sticker price was $3.85 for 20 unprimed Remington cases.

Thanks for all the info and assistance Gents! I hope to get to the range in the next few days with several calibers, so I'll post my results with the N140.