The Frontal Shot!

[Schleppy]

Now that is good info right from the horse docs mouth.

Sorry couldnt resist.

Equine veterinarian.

 

[vcb]

I thought so!

 

[Lukem]

You poke a hole in the lungs they don't bleed to death, they suffocate.

I thought it was shock that killed them. I takes an animal a long time to suffocate, how do they die in 100 yards with a double lung, or a single lung for that matter? I know a human can run at least 400 meters with a collapsed lung (yeah it really hurts). I've heard tons of different info on this and I'm just trying to figure it out.

As for Aron's original question, I'm not sure what I'd do on an elk. I know I wouldn't on a deer. Did that at 12 yards and hit the deer just a little off center like I wanted, and the arrow never entered the chest cavity. It flexed, went right under the front leg and poked through the skin halfway down the ribs. I was fortunate to get the carotid on the way in, but he still ran 400 yards.

 

[fencesitter]

At close distances, if you decide to take this shot, make sure the bull's head is in a normal position. If the bull's head / neck is in a ducking position, he could end up with a lollipop (arrow) in his mouth and throat, which is bad scenario. I would be very reluctant to take this shot, but would consider it, if the stars aligned!

 

[Jdog]

I thought it was shock that killed them. I takes an animal a long time to suffocate, how do they die in 100 yards with a double lung, or a single lung for that matter? I know a human can run at least 400 meters with a collapsed lung (yeah it really hurts). I've heard tons of different info on this and I'm just trying to figure it out.

As for Aron's original question, I'm not sure what I'd do on an elk. I know I wouldn't on a deer. Did that at 12 yards and hit the deer just a little off center like I wanted, and the arrow never entered the chest cavity. It flexed, went right under the front leg and poked through the skin halfway down the ribs. I was fortunate to get the carotid on the way in, but he still ran 400 yards.

I don't think they suffocate...I would think they actually drown in their own blood as the lung/s fill up. Hence blood coming out of the nose and mouth when you inspect them during recovery on many lung shot critters. They cough up the blood out of their lungs as they are choking/drowning in it.

Collapsed lung doesn't necessarily mean its filling up with blood...hence them being able to travel. Its just means it may not be working at all or properly.

That's my guess...but I guess I could google it!

 

[jmez]

They do suffocate. Reason you can keep going on one lung is that you still have one working. Humans have a complete mediastinum so of only one lung is collapsed it doesn't affect the other lung.

Chest has negative pressure compared to the outside world, you open a hole in the chest the negative pressure is lost and the lung can no longer inflate. You open the chest and put a hole in the lung you have bleeding on top of an incapacitated lung. Not enough oxygen getting to the body critter dies. They really can't choke on their own blood. The lung itself does not fill up with blood, it bleeds into the chest cavity. Blood won't defy gravity and for blood to get into the trachea and travel up it would have to be forced by pressure. As the animal breathes and coughs some of the blood will be pulled up with air pressure. When the animal tips over and lays flat then the blood will run out of the nose and mouth. For them to choke on their own blood standing you need pressure to force a lot of blood up into the airways.

Shock plays a roll but they die from lack of oxygen to the brain. Two causes, hemorrhage and non functioning lungs. Shock actually is a condition that is protective. It starts to shunt blood from non essential areas of the body to the heart and brain to try to maintain life. Even without a large amount of hemorrhage the animal will die very quickly if the lungs aren't functioning. The blood continues to circulate but is not carrying any oxygen so is basically useless.

 

[Manosteel]

Enjoy the refreshing honesty on this thread! I have seen similar threads turn into flame wars on other forums. And like most response here, like any other shoot, it would depend on the circumstances but I would not shy away from the opportunity based on an artificially self imposed rule/principle.

 

[Titaniumman]

I agree with Trout Bum. Inside 20 yards and a calm animal I would take the shot.

 

[wapitibob]

Thanks for the rational posts guys. Jmez, thanks for the insight.

 

[manbearpig]

There were so many good points brought up in this thread. I voted take the shot based on knowledge, skill and ability.

 

[Jskmtd]

I have taken the frontal shot on one bull at 13 yards with the bull expiring within 20 yards. Out of 9 elk with my bow I have only had one bull expire covering less distance. The key is to know your abilities, your equipment, and the anatomy of the animal you are hunting. Just like what has been said before if the conditions are right, go for it.

 

[123 4/8 P&Y]

If you are getting a massive blood trail on a frontal shot then you are a little off center and hit the carotid artery. It is the only major artery in the neck region. One on each side running right down the side of then neck just under the jugular vein. Jugular vein will bleed a lot but usually won't result in death if that is all you hit.


As far as aiming. Aim right where the neck meets the chest.

Yes the 40% rule is for bleeding out or bleeding only. You poke a hole in the lungs they don't bleed to death, they suffocate.

I didn't know you were a horse vet. It's good getting this type of info from somebody that knows the science behind the vitals.

 

[Craig Steele]

New to the site.

Watched a lady pass on a bull at 12 yards because he was facing her. A few days later she shot a bull at 30 yards facing her and he didn't make it 100 yards. Once upon a time I thought it was a horrible idea, but after many years of hunting I have seen a number of gut shot, one lung and shoulder shot bulls get away.

To be honest, I have never seen a bull that was shot head on get away. Maybe it is just luck.

FYI-I have never shot a bull head on.

 

[jmo033]

This shot is not for me. I know that there is no such thing as a sure bet, but there are too many things that have to go perfect for this shot to work. IMO.

 

[littlebuf]

this is such a silly argument. granted this web site has had the most polite disscution on the topic i think ive ever seen on the web. for those that have it engraned in there mind that it is a bad shot how big of a kill zone do you need to place a arrow? because the frontal shot offers a pretty big one. if you cant hit that id be worried about any shot on game frankly.

 

[Coyote Commander]

They do suffocate. Reason you can keep going on one lung is that you still have one working. Humans have a complete mediastinum so of only one lung is collapsed it doesn't affect the other lung.

Chest has negative pressure compared to the outside world, you open a hole in the chest the negative pressure is lost and the lung can no longer inflate. You open the chest and put a hole in the lung you have bleeding on top of an incapacitated lung. Not enough oxygen getting to the body critter dies. They really can't choke on their own blood. The lung itself does not fill up with blood, it bleeds into the chest cavity. Blood won't defy gravity and for blood to get into the trachea and travel up it would have to be forced by pressure. As the animal breathes and coughs some of the blood will be pulled up with air pressure. When the animal tips over and lays flat then the blood will run out of the nose and mouth. For them to choke on their own blood standing you need pressure to force a lot of blood up into the airways.

Shock plays a roll but they die from lack of oxygen to the brain. Two causes, hemorrhage and non functioning lungs. Shock actually is a condition that is protective. It starts to shunt blood from non essential areas of the body to the heart and brain to try to maintain life. Even without a large amount of hemorrhage the animal will die very quickly if the lungs aren't functioning. The blood continues to circulate but is not carrying any oxygen so is basically useless.

Well said.

And this is why the DOUBLE LUNG shot is the best shot you can make. Screw the heart. A critter can go a long ways on one lung, ive seen em do it!

Heck, I know of a one lung dog that functions perfectly fine.

Tough to make a double lung shot with a frontal shot. Although the frontal shot can definitely be a good option in the right conditions. The problem is, youre probably only gonna get one lung (which could possibly mean a long tracking job). Best case scenario, you skim over the heart taking out the main arteries.

The other problem with the frontal shot, is ANY bit of quartering angle, even a little, drastically cuts down the hole you have to slip an arrow in. They've really got to be absolutely squared off with you to maximize the hole you have to put one in there.

The final problem I have with the shot, is your arrow is most likely to end up well back into the abdominal cavity, which means guts and stomach. Something id rather not deal with in the backcountry where I might not be able to thoroughly wash meat off right away. This problem could be augmented greatly if recovery gets delayed for any reason.

Someone said theyd rather take the frontal shot at 20 rather than a broadside at 60. I may tend to agree there. If conditions were right.

 

[Chad44]

Can someone post a pic or two of where to place an arrow on a frontal shot? I'm thinking it midway up but???

 

[Craig Van Arsdale]

Can someone post a pic or two of where to place an arrow on a frontal shot? I'm thinking it midway up but???

Look at the link I posted earlier in the thread. It has another link off of it that shows several different animals and aiming locations on each of them.

 

[wapitibob]

I saved these from other posts.

 

[Coyote Commander]

I wouldnt be even thinking of taking this shot.