The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[dylanvb]

That is to be expected. This hasn’t happened on any other thread that I know of. Christianity really gets some peoples panties in a wad.

“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Praying for all my fellow believers who struggle with the day in and day out problems that we all go through.

 

[JGRaider]

Throughout history people have tried to pervert the gospel by adding human works to it, requiring certain things to be done to “earn” salvation. But the Bible’s clear message is that the way of salvation has always been through faith. In the Old Testament, it was faith in the promise that God would send a Savior someday. Those who lived in the time of the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah and believed God’s promise of the coming Servant of the Lord (Isaiah 53). Those who exercised such faith were saved.

 

[Beagle1]

Maybe it can’t be falsified because it’s true. At some point there has to be some credit given that for 2000 years the Bible has not been proven to be a lie. Whether you believe in it or not it still has not been proven to be false.

At the end of the day we are talking about someone’s faith. The fact that there are some on here who lump everyone who identifies as a demographic as the same. If you are a Christian,Muslims, vegans, atheists, hunters, etc. then you are automatically lumped into the worst common denominator that serves a someone’s example. And that is not true for the whole of the demographic. When I as a Christian say that no evidence can change my mind about my faith just remember that I have half of a lifetime as a non believer. I have experience from two different lives to make my decision from. That is not being close minded. It is a well informed decision.

You say maybe Christianity “can’t be falsified because it’s true.” But that’s not how truth usually works. Gravity could in principle be falsified, if a ball ever fell upward with no external force, the theory would collapse. The same applies to other scientific theories. They’re accepted as true not because they’re unfalsifiable, but because they’ve survived repeated attempts at falsification.

By contrast, an unfalsifiable belief doesn’t get stronger the longer it survives, it’s simply insulated from challenge. The Bible hasn’t avoided being “proven false” because all its claims withstand scrutiny; it’s because many of its claims are either unfalsifiable (like miracles) or contradicted by evidence but defended through reinterpretation. Events like the Exodus or a global flood lack credible historical or archaeological support. That silence doesn’t strictly prove them false, but the more history we uncover without confirmation, the weaker the historical case becomes.

You’ve experienced two perspectives at some point in your life on believing. If you remain willing to revise your beliefs if new evidence or arguments show your current beliefs are likely untrue we are on common ground. But I think it’s fair to say yours is the minority view here.

And on the point about “lumping demographics”. Skepticism isn’t about assuming all Christians, Muslims, or anyone else are identical. It’s about examining whether the reasoning used to defend a belief is logically sound. If a Christian says my belief is true because it can’t be falsified, that reasoning is flawed regardless of how sincerely it’s held. A Muslim, a Hindu, or a Mormon could say the exact same thing, with equal confidence, and you would reject it. Your unfalsifiable claim is treated the same as theirs.

 

[go_deep]

Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:6

 

[Shortschaf]

You say maybe Christianity “can’t be falsified because it’s true.” But that’s not how truth usually works. Gravity could in principle be falsified, if a ball ever fell upward with no external force, the theory would collapse. The same applies to other scientific theories. They’re accepted as true not because they’re unfalsifiable, but because they’ve survived repeated attempts at falsification.

By contrast, an unfalsifiable belief doesn’t get stronger the longer it survives, it’s simply insulated from challenge. The Bible hasn’t avoided being “proven false” because all its claims withstand scrutiny; it’s because many of its claims are either unfalsifiable (like miracles) or contradicted by evidence but defended through reinterpretation. Events like the Exodus or a global flood lack credible historical or archaeological support. That silence doesn’t strictly prove them false, but the more history we uncover without confirmation, the weaker the historical case becomes.

You’ve experienced two perspectives at some point in your life on believing. If you remain willing to revise your beliefs if new evidence or arguments show your current beliefs are likely untrue we are on common ground. But I think it’s fair to say yours is the minority view here.

And on the point about “lumping demographics”. Skepticism isn’t about assuming all Christians, Muslims, or anyone else are identical. It’s about examining whether the reasoning used to defend a belief is logically sound. If a Christian says my belief is true because it can’t be falsified, that reasoning is flawed regardless of how sincerely it’s held. A Muslim, a Hindu, or a Mormon could say the exact same thing, with equal confidence, and you would reject it. Your unfalsifiable claim is treated the same as theirs.

Would it not be the beginning of wisdom to fear an all powerful God who's mercy we are eternally reliant on?

 

[JGRaider]

You say maybe Christianity “can’t be falsified because it’s true.” But that’s not how truth usually works. Gravity could in principle be falsified, if a ball ever fell upward with no external force, the theory would collapse. The same applies to other scientific theories. They’re accepted as true not because they’re unfalsifiable, but because they’ve survived repeated attempts at falsification.

By contrast, an unfalsifiable belief doesn’t get stronger the longer it survives, it’s simply insulated from challenge. The Bible hasn’t avoided being “proven false” because all its claims withstand scrutiny; it’s because many of its claims are either unfalsifiable (like miracles) or contradicted by evidence but defended through reinterpretation. Events like the Exodus or a global flood lack credible historical or archaeological support. That silence doesn’t strictly prove them false, but the more history we uncover without confirmation, the weaker the historical case becomes.

You’ve experienced two perspectives at some point in your life on believing. If you remain willing to revise your beliefs if new evidence or arguments show your current beliefs are likely untrue we are on common ground. But I think it’s fair to say yours is the minority view here.

And on the point about “lumping demographics”. Skepticism isn’t about assuming all Christians, Muslims, or anyone else are identical. It’s about examining whether the reasoning used to defend a belief is logically sound. If a Christian says my belief is true because it can’t be falsified, that reasoning is flawed regardless of how sincerely it’s held. A Muslim, a Hindu, or a Mormon could say the exact same thing, with equal confidence, and you would reject it. Your unfalsifiable claim is treated the same as theirs.

Wow, most of that is a "stretch" wider than the Grand Canyon (especially your gravity parody). If you were to be 100% honest, you'd acknowledge that there have been many, many people start out to refute the Bible based on whatever means necessary, only to find they cannot because the "facts" as you say, are not there and never have been.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I have been gone from fhis thread for a bit, and some of you are probably ok with that, but catching up on it really highlights a couple things:

1. A lot of straw man arguments are put out by nonbelievers trying to trip up believers. Seems there is a lot of hurt or frustration within those straw men arguments.

2. Certain people argue the same thing all the time. Nothing original and it is like banging your head against the wall. Its tiring and ignoring certain people and their posts may make this thread even better.

3. There is no convincing the non-believer of the actuality of God nor the wisdom within the Bible. It really is such an easy thing to see when looking at the thread as a whole.

4. Keep up the good fight. I do feel this thread is spiritual warfare being played out for us to see. There is no other reason for all the non-believers to be on here, other than they were drawn in by spiritual powers that align against the Lord of Lords.

“Why are your clothes so red, as if you have been treading out grapes? “I have been treading the winepress alone; no one was there to help me. In my anger I have trampled my enemies as if they were grapes. In my fury I have trampled my foes. Their blood has stained my clothes.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭63‬:‭2‬-‭3‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Isaiah 63:2-3 Why are your clothes so red, as if you have been treading out grapes? “I have been treading the winepress alone; no one was there to help me. In my anger I have trampled my enemies as if they were gr | New Living Translation (NLT) | Do

Why are your clothes so red, as if you have been treading out grapes? “I have been treading the winepress alone; no one was there to help me. In my anger I have trampled my enemies as if they were gr

bible.com

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I have been gone from fhis thread for a bit, and some of you are probably ok woth that, but catching up on it really highlights a cpuple things:

1. A lot of straw man arguments are put out by nonbelievers trying to trip up believers. Seems there is a lot of hurt or frustration within those straw men arguments.

2. Certain people argue the same thing all the time. Nothing original and it is like bamging your head against the wall. Its tiring and ignoring certain people and their posts may make this thread even better.

3. There is no convincing the non-believer of the actuality of Hod nor the wisdom within the Bible. It really is such an easy thing to see when looking at the thread as a whole.

4. Keep up the good fight. I do feel this thread is spiritual warfare being played out for us to see. There is no other reason for all the non-believers to be on here, other than they were drawn in by spiritual powers that align against the Lord of Lords.

“Why are your clothes so red, as if you have been treading out grapes? “I have been treading the winepress alone; no one was there to help me. In my anger I have trampled my enemies as if they were grapes. In my fury I have trampled my foes. Their blood has stained my clothes.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭63‬:‭2‬-‭3‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Isaiah 63:2-3 Why are your clothes so red, as if you have been treading out grapes? “I have been treading the winepress alone; no one was there to help me. In my anger I have trampled my enemies as if they were gr | New Living Translation (NLT) | Do

Why are your clothes so red, as if you have been treading out grapes? “I have been treading the winepress alone; no one was there to help me. In my anger I have trampled my enemies as if they were gr

bible.com

I’m guessing you see anything that goes against your view even in a conversational manner as a “straw man argument meant to trip up believers”.

So you want an echo chamber rather than a discussion correct?

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Wow, most of that is a "stretch" wider than the Grand Canyon (especially your gravity parody). If you were to be 100% honest, you'd acknowledge that there have been many, many people start out to refute the Bible based on whatever means necessary, only to find they cannot because the "facts" as you say, are not there and never have been.

Can’t really prove a solve negative can you?

 

[Shortschaf]

I’m guessing you see anything that goes against your view even in a conversational manner as a “straw man argument meant to trip up believers”.

So you want an echo chamber rather than a discussion correct?

This would be an unfair assessment.

Buckeye is just stating the obvious--there is no way to solve anything in an orderly fashion on a public forum, especially on controversial topics, especially a topic like religion. It has been fruitlessly circular thanks to members on both sides:

For example,

1. "there is no evidence of the global flood, so Bible is wrong, so Christians are wrong"
2. A Christian points out that we do not necessarily believe it was a global flood
3. Another Christian states they do believe it was a global flood
4. Repeat

 

[thinhorn_AK]

This would be an unfair assessment.

Buckeye is just stating the obvious--there is no way to solve anything in an orderly fashion on a public forum, especially on controversial topics, especially a topic like religion. It has been fruitlessly circular thanks to members on both sides:

For example,

1. "there is no evidence of the global flood, so Bible is wrong, so Christians are wrong"
2. A Christian points out that we do not necessarily believe it was a global flood
3. Another Christian states they do believe it was a global flood
4. Repeat

Is anybody trying to solve anything though? it seems like people trying to have a discussion then a few people seem to get upset and start talking about blocking people and claiming people are trying to "trip them up". I mean c'mon, blocking people on a hunting forum for having the audacity to ask questions about something that is important to you?

That isn't somebody wanting a discussion, its somebody who wants to be told they are right without pondering an idea.

 

[Plainsman79]

We have free will, but what does that really mean when someone has such psychopathic tendencies? Do you think someone like Bundy even has the capacity to think through things in nearly the same way as you or I? When you see true evil, it’s obvious operating on an entirely different plane of existence than most of us.

I agree with you in seeing pure evil has those individuals or groups operating on an entirely different plane than the rest of society. It legitimately leaves the door open for was there demons or the devil himself actively working through Ted’s body mind and soul? There are so many past and active exorcisms that have been documented that it leaves no doubt that evil and demons exists in this world.

If evil exists, why can’t good? If non believers or skeptics acknowledge evil in this world, why can’t goodness, love and mercy exist?

 

[Plainsman79]

Are you basically just saying that people have the choice to believe in god or not??? Again, what about people who were never exposed to these ideas? Do they go to hell???

Absolutely people have the choice to believe in God or not. This whole thread is full of discussion from people who have accepted Him, people who aren’t quite there (yet) hopefully and people who flat out reject Him.

The answer to your second question is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Simply put, we are not held accountable for sins or lack of information that we don’t know we have committed or been made available to. There is invincible and vincible ignorance and it’s applied to both believers and non-believers. Invincible Ignorance is defined as a state that a person cannot overcome, even with reasonable diligence, due to factors like limited access to information, lack of capacity, or profound misunderstanding. Vincible is defined as ignorance that a person could and should have overcome with reasonable effort and diligence.
There is evidence of this in one of John Burke’s book about near death experiences. An individual with no prior knowledge of Jesus had an NDE and came back telling the story about being in the true presence of peace. If you’re interested, you should check out his books. They’re fascinating accounts of people having experiences in Heaven and Hell. John admits he was an agnostic and his interviews and writing the book changed him to a believer.

Part of our assignments of being followers of Jesus and listening to Him is to go out and spread the good news to all corners of the earth. Mark 16:15.

James 2:14-26 tells us faith without works is dead.

 

[Bugger]

The answer to your second question is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Simply put, we are not held accountable for sins or lack of information that we don’t know we have committed or been made available to. There is invincible and vincible ignorance and it’s applied to both believers and non-believers. Invincible Ignorance is defined as a state that a person cannot overcome, even with reasonable diligence, due to factors like limited access to information, lack of capacity, or profound misunderstanding. Vincible is defined as ignorance that a person could and should have overcome with reasonable effort and diligence.

Honest question for the believers on here. Wouldn’t most of humanity throughout history fall into the category of “unknowing” of Christianity? It’s easy as modern westerners to be of the mindset that it’s easily accessible, but there have been literally billions of people over thousands of generations in Asia, the Middle East, early Americas, etc plus everybody in the world that existed prior to the Old Testament that have zero exposure to the religion or at max just know of them as their enemy with no other context. Sure, there’s the verse that god should be apparent in nature, but that led civilizations to worship their own versions of god or gods. Is that valid, excused, or a sin? Nobody ever just concluded that there was the Christian god worshipped through Jesus without outside influence.

Just seems strange to me that the overwhelming majority of souls throughout history raised on judgement day would have an exemption letter.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Is anybody trying to solve anything though? it seems like people trying to have a discussion then a few people seem to get upset and start talking about blocking people and claiming people are trying to "trip them up". I mean c'mon, blocking people on a hunting forum for having the audacity to ask questions about something that is important to you?

That isn't somebody wanting a discussion, its somebody who wants to be told they are right without pondering an idea.

I’ll be the first to admit, I can’t answer every question. There are things written in the Bible that give me pause and create questions.

Some people are looking for unequivocal physical proof.

I’m completely okay having discussions. There have been some good ones. At the end of the day though, it’s highly likely we will need to agree to disagree on certain things.

I completely get it non-believers find certain aspects of Christianity offensive. I didn’t make the rules, so please don’t shoot the messenger.

 

[JGRaider]

Bugger, for the sake of discussion let's just assume what you just said is true. My question would be what is your excuse for "knowing", yet still rejecting God's grace for you?

However, with regards to your last post specifically....Paul asserts that all people have the opportunity to “know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them” (Romans 1:19, NLT). God has revealed Himself with such breathtaking clarity through the visible world He created that people have no excuse for not knowing Him or believing in Him. They only have themselves to blame for rejecting the God of creation.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I’m guessing you see anything that goes against your view even in a conversational manner as a “straw man argument meant to trip up believers”.

So you want an echo chamber rather than a discussion correct?

See post 1390 for an example of a straw man argument. There are many through this thread just like that.

I am not anything like what you described. I am happy to have a civilized discussion about things either you or I do not understand fully. But you have made an assumption a priori about me that i am not sure can even be over come, so i will tread lightly with you if you can understand why.

Good try though. I wish you knew what you were up against. And i am not saying that to refer to myself or to this thread. There are literal spiritual lords at battle in this thread, and Jesus vanquishes them all. It doesnt mean they still dont have a hold on some people through proxies and earthly idols/lords, but when you fight against the Lord of lords, it is a losing battle. Guaranteed.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Absolutely people have the choice to believe in God or not. This whole thread is full of discussion from people who have accepted Him, people who aren’t quite there (yet) hopefully and people who flat out reject Him.

The answer to your second question is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Simply put, we are not held accountable for sins or lack of information that we don’t know we have committed or been made available to. There is invincible and vincible ignorance and it’s applied to both believers and non-believers. Invincible Ignorance is defined as a state that a person cannot overcome, even with reasonable diligence, due to factors like limited access to information, lack of capacity, or profound misunderstanding. Vincible is defined as ignorance that a person could and should have overcome with reasonable effort and diligence.
There is evidence of this in one of John Burke’s book about near death experiences. An individual with no prior knowledge of Jesus had an NDE and came back telling the story about being in the true presence of peace. If you’re interested, you should check out his books. They’re fascinating accounts of people having experiences in Heaven and Hell. John admits he was an agnostic and his interviews and writing the book changed him to a believer.

Part of our assignments of being followers of Jesus and listening to Him is to go out and spread the good news to all corners of the earth. Mark 16:15.

James 2:14-26 tells us faith without works is dead.

I am reading “imagine heaven” right now and it is a fascinating read, probably changing a little bit of the dogma in ly mind that surrounds the whole protestant line of “say a prayer and you will be in heaven” type stuff, but i am not at the end yet (literally or figuratively) so my mind is still open to possibles that i have not considered and are not outside of or in conflict with the Bible.

One thing i heard this weekend that was interesting and put a different twist on things was the Bible was written for us, but we have to look at it through a christocentric viewpoint, not an anthropormorphic view point. Meaning we cant read it as if people are the center of the story. It has always been about Jesus and God and their plan to redeem human kind back to fellowship with them. So while the Bible was written for us, there is a lot of stuff going on in between the lines that we do not get a full picture of in a casual reading of the Bible. Really opens the eyes to see some of the crazy spiritual stuff that has gone on and is still going on.

Just one example: we always consider satan the enemy of God. But clearly in Isaiah 63 it talks about how Jesus tramples His enemies (plural) and no one came to His aid, meaning there are multiple principalities (lords) that were all trying to over throw the ability of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit ability to redeem human kind. This is not taught well, and this gives rise to the possibility that all of the other gods that were spoken/written about in history may have actually existed. But we know how the story ends, thats the good news.

In Burke’s book, he does say none of the NDEs experienced things taught in buddhism or hinduism, people of those faiths and belief systems still experienced the God the Bible talks about, all loving full of light. The biblical descriptions of Yahweh are consistent time and time again in NDE’s across the world.

Sorry this is long winded.

 

[Plainsman79]

Honest question for the believers on here. Wouldn’t most of humanity throughout history fall into the category of “unknowing” of Christianity? It’s easy as modern westerners to be of the mindset that it’s easily accessible, but there have been literally billions of people over thousands of generations in Asia, the Middle East, early Americas, etc plus everybody in the world that existed prior to the Old Testament that have zero exposure to the religion or at max just know of them as their enemy with no other context. Sure, there’s the verse that god should be apparent in nature, but that led civilizations to worship their own versions of god or gods. Is that valid, excused, or a sin? Nobody ever just concluded that there was the Christian god worshipped through Jesus without outside influence.

Just seems strange to me that the overwhelming majority of souls throughout history raised on judgement day would have an exemption letter.

I personally don’t want to be in that position of answering that type of question. I don’t want to be the judge on who gets in and who gets sent to hell. That’s strictly up to Jesus. He is the only one that knows our hearts. All I can give you are the reasons why the universal church teaches what it does.

When civilizations worshipped man made “gods” that is when God revealed his wrath on them all throughout the Old Testament. It goes back to post #1 of this thread.

John 14: 2-3 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I’ll be the first to admit, I can’t answer every question. There are things written in the Bible that give me pause and create questions.

Some people are looking for unequivocal physical proof.

I’m completely okay having discussions. There have been some good ones. At the end of the day though, it’s highly likely we will need to agree to disagree on certain things.

I completely get it non-believers find certain aspects of Christianity offensive. I didn’t make the rules, so please don’t shoot the messenger.

Im not shooting the messenger, I have not discussed my own beliefs, I simply like theological debate even though I rarely get involved in it. Im not offended by anybodies beliefs even if I don't agree with them. From reading through this thread, the people getting offended are the believers who can't handle tough questions. Just in the last few pages there's been people talking about blocking folks, ignoring threads etc etc when in reality the thread has been civil.