The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[go_deep]

I think the point @go_deep is trying to convey in this topic is that yes people will die for whatever just cause they believe in BUT people do not willingly die for a lie meaning the disciples and Christians of the early church who witnessed the miracles and truth of Jesus Christ wouldn’t willingly put themselves through torture and death for a lie they witnessed first hand.

The point was there's not even a commonality it how the disciples died, verse a suicide bomber or a kamikaze.
Ones preaching salvation in public with no forceful backing and being persecuted day in and day out for years, the other is plotting death in secrecy for an act that takes a few minutes at most. The 2 are not the same, the motives are not the same, the drive, the will, none of it is the same, including the outcome. Did they each die? Yes, that's we're the comparison ends.

 

[Beagle1]

The point was there's not even a commonality it how the disciples died, verse a suicide bomber or a kamikaze.
Ones preaching salvation in public with no forceful backing and being persecuted day in and day out for years, the other is plotting death in secrecy for an act that takes a few minutes at most. The 2 are not the same, the motives are not the same, the drive, the will, none of it is the same, including the outcome. Did they each die? Yes, that's we're the comparison ends.

Yes what the apostles believed and why they believed it is different. But people die for false things they believe to be true. Strength of belief is the common thread between Christian martyrs like the apostles and religious extremists like suicide bombers or kamikaze pilots.

 

[go_deep]

Yes what the apostles believed and why they believed it is different. But people die for false things they believe to be true. Strength of belief is the common thread between Christian martyrs like the apostles and religious extremists like suicide bombers or kamikaze pilots.

You have to go deeper physiologically, for the really driving motives, and they're a long ways apart.
Suicide bomber, 77 virgins, by killing people and myself, by choice.

Kamikaze, honor for my family and it's name, by killing people and myself, by choice.

Disciples of Christ, to stop others from suffering an eternal punishment, by informing them of the Savior, even when threatened that they would be killed, they would not stop spreading the word of Christ.

The first 2 knew the very moment they were dying, quickly too I might add and how. the disciples had no idea if they would die for preaching, but there was no way they would let threats of injury against them stop them, they suffered, greatly, long before they ever died a miserable death, and never stopped preaching.

Again, I ask, if a suicide bomber had to go from town to town for years preaching about how he was going to blow up a crowd at a market with women and children and got beaten, tortured, stoned, and had to keep doing that for years, would he follow through?

 

[Shortschaf]

Happy Sunday all

First reading today gives us the story of Abraham pleading for Sodom-- that the town be spared if even 10 innocents be found, which the Lord accepted. Later Lot's family was allowed to escape the city before its destruction

And in Luke's Gospel today, Jesus teaches us the Lord's prayer

 

[Elcy]

A huge thankyou to @Beagle1 for taking the time to eloquently push back in this thread.

Keep up the good fight!

 

[Texasbuckeye]

A huge thankyou to @Beagle1 for taking the time to eloquently push back in this thread.

Keep up the good fight!

See, thats exactly what this has not been…a fight. Well technically, it is a fight, but not in this realm but in the spiritual realm.

I do question why you decided to post what you did. Are you arriving at this thread with an intent to learn something, or just try to male fun of or ridicule christians?

 

[go_deep]

A huge thankyou to @Beagle1 for taking the time to eloquently push back in this thread.

Keep up the good fight!

Christ's peace be with you

 

[Beagle1]

See, thats exactly what this has not been…a fight. Well technically, it is a fight, but not in this realm but in the spiritual realm.

I do question why you decided to post what you did. Are you arriving at this thread with an intent to learn something, or just try to male fun of or ridicule christians?

The nonbelievers posts have been civil and on point. You might not like their content but they have not been cheap shots. I would say most of the believers comments have been the same.

 

[Beagle1]

The point was there's not even a commonality it how the disciples died, verse a suicide bomber or a kamikaze.
Ones preaching salvation in public with no forceful backing and being persecuted day in and day out for years, the other is plotting death in secrecy for an act that takes a few minutes at most. The 2 are not the same, the motives are not the same, the drive, the will, none of it is the same, including the outcome. Did they each die? Yes, that's we're the comparison ends.

The disciples suffering is strong evidence - in the sincerity of what they believed to be true. That’s does not make it true. Strength of belief does not equal truth.

On the suicde bombers - their decision is often the result of a long process, sometimes life long, of radicalization.

 

[Bugger]

You have to go deeper physiologically, for the really driving motives, and they're a long ways apart.
Suicide bomber, 77 virgins, by killing people and myself, by choice.

Kamikaze, honor for my family and it's name, by killing people and myself, by choice.

It’s much less transactional than that, they were completely committed to a cause that they wholly believed. If the suicide bomber was simply looking to get jiggy with 72 virgins, he would not be admitted into their version of heaven. Their heaven just happens to include that perk. Not sure what female Muslims get…
Many (not all) kamikazes were fanatical in their belief that they were a part of the protection/expansion of their regime in honor of their divinely appointed emperor, so they willingly gave up their lives for the cause knowing their personal story of sacrifice would likely never be known.
Look into Buddhist self-immolation too.
This is not to glorify any of those acts, but it shows identical dedication to belief (their truth). Their sacrifices, while encouraging and a courageous example to other followers of their group, is not evidence of truth to all.
Again, to keep this civil. None of this is to say you shouldn’t believe it, it’s an explanation of why some of us don’t.

 

[eddielasvegas]

This one is my favorite.

Ezekiel 25:17

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

My guess is you knew this, but in case you did not.



If you did know this, well done for a valuable post to this thread.


Eddie

 

[eddielasvegas]

You didn't answer my question. How do you explain that man's experience? What he saw during his near death experience. How it is like the experiences of thousands of other people. He didn't know anything about scripture and his experience lined up with it. I don't know if he actually changed his life, but assuming he did, why? There are even cases of people who were born blind who experienced sight during an NDE. They wake up from surgery and can tell the doctors what they looked like, color of clothing, what was in the room. They have no concept of vision or color but can describe everything. Even if you don't believe in God, I think it shows there is something after we die. People who grew up in India or Africa who have never heard of Jesus waking up talking about a man of light they eventually find to be Jesus. Psychedelics don't do this. There were theories about your body dumping DMT into your system at death causing these visions but how are they all so similar? I'm not trying to make you believe in anything, just how do you explain this phenomenon?

I watched that entire video. I wouldn't invite him into my house without knowing him personally. Seeing his past, I would be cautious he was running some kind of scam. I would have lunch with the guy. I would love to see if he has truly changed. When he described what happened to him when he "died", he was made to understand and personally feel the suffering he caused every person in his entire life. It sounded so awful, that I actually had some sympathy for him even though it's what we all deserve. If we all could experience that, we would be different people.

I don't know if God cares about baseball. He's created us all with certain talents that we should all use to the best of our ability. It shows glory to him, and I tell him how grateful I am for what he has given me all the time. I could have been born with severe autism or without legs. I am blessed. When players point up, I hope they are giving a nod to God that it's him, not them that gave them the ability to hit a home run. Not that they have been granted a wish from some genie in the sky. That's about the best I can explain it. I'm not trying to convince you, it's just what I believe.

I will, but I need time to digest @go_deep's insightful reply in post #790.

Bear with me as I'm sure I'll need a couple days as there is lots to unpack there.


Eddie

 

[Elcy]

See, thats exactly what this has not been…a fight. Well technically, it is a fight, but not in this realm but in the spiritual realm.

I do question why you decided to post what you did. Are you arriving at this thread with an intent to learn something, or just try to male fun of or ridicule christians?

I arrived at this thread, as I do almost all the threads on this forum and others I frequent as something to do while drinking my morning coffee. Some titles pique my interest and I click on them.
I believe my beliefs align with @Beagle1 and likely @eddielasvegas who (compared to the amount of members with opposing views) are greatly outnumbered.

Simply a show of support and appreciation for the time and effort put in for the under represented. Nowhere did I make fun of or ridicule anyone.

Would it have been better if I would have quoted a post by one of them and simply wrote "amen" as a sign of solidarity as many other have to posts with opposing viewpoints?

I had no intention of retuning to this thread, but since you drew me back, I will take this moment to ponder if maybe you typed male instead of make as a Freudian slip?

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Lol, yeah Freudian slip. Good one.
I find it interesting when non-believers “stumble” on a thread about the “Wisdom starts with fear of the Lord”….

I know in the past when i “stumbled” onto atheist threads on other forums to discuss things, there was no “stumbling” and it was purely for the intent of a debate.

Maybe i was personalizing too much with your post, and you actually did stumble on here and just wanted to give your fellow nonbelievers some support…and thats fine. I did t start this thread so i wont speak to what the intent of the thread was (i believe we have gotten quite a ways away from that quite a bit due to my posts) but none the less, i have to think even if you did “stumble” into this thread that there was a reason for that. As we all k ow a stumble is a fall that stops short, and we all fall short. We all do. Its what you do with that which makes all the difference.

There is plenty in this thread to allow me to say if you read this thread, you know all you need to know to make the difference

 

[Yoder]

NDEs. Hindus often see Yama or Krishna. Buddhists experience reincarnation themes. Christians see Jesus. That’s not objective proof of an afterlife, it’s strong evidence that NDEs are brain-based experiences shaped by a person’s religion, upbringing and culture.

Hindus see Jesus. Buddhists see Jesus. There are thousands of cases where people who don't even know who Jesus is, see Jesus. How does a woman blind from birth see Jesus? People who have never read the Bible describe heaven exactly as written in the Bible.

 

[Yoder]

I will, but I need time to digest @go_deep's insightful reply in post #790.

Bear with me as I'm sure I'll need a couple days as there is lots to unpack there.


Eddie

You should check out the book Imagine Heaven. The author was an atheist who got interested in NDE's when his father was dying from cancer. Even if you don't believe in God, it's a really interesting book.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Hindus see Jesus. Buddhists see Jesus. There are thousands of cases where people who don't even know who Jesus is, see Jesus. How does a woman blind from birth see Jesus? People who have never read the Bible describe heaven exactly as written in the Bible.

I was going to say tye same thing but stopped, so thanks for confirming my urging to write that.
While i know eyes are blind and hearts are hard, the HS can soften the blinders to let some light in and make the heart malleable to be moved by the love of God.
My humanness said otherwise.

 

[Elcy]

You have engaged with me twice now, both times twisting words into things I never said nor inferred.

...I do question why you decided to post what you did. Are you arriving at this thread with an intent to learn something, or just try to male fun of or ridicule christians?

Before that post I hadn't tried to {make} fun of or ridicule Christians
Since, I did poke a bit at you personally, not because you're a Christian. I'm glad you were able to see the humor in it and brush it off.

..... and you actually did stumble on here and just wanted to give your fellow nonbelievers some support…

I clearly stated, "Some titles pique my interest and I click on them".
I in no way stumbled into anything, it was a deliberate action of my brain telling my hand to move the mouse and my finger to press the left, not right click button.

I won't take the time to go back and read the rest of your posts to see what or who you have misrepresented. I would suggest you to guard your words a bit closer, as they do have meaning.

 

[Yoder]

“Nobody dies for a lie”. Actually they do. Heaven’s Gate cult, Jonestown, Japanese kamikaze pilots Muslim extremists being a few examples.

No that's not correct. Those people all died for a belief not a lie. They believed a lie, they didn't know the actual truth firsthand. The Apostles would have known if Jesus was just removed from the tomb and buried somewhere. They went from denying him to dying for him after they saw him risen with their own eyes. If they knew the whole thing was nonsense do you think they would have suffered and died horrific deaths without ever denying him again?

 

[Texasbuckeye]

You have engaged with me twice now, both times twisting words into things I never said nor inferred.


Before that post I hadn't tried to {make} fun of or ridicule Christians
Since, I did poke a bit at you personally, not because you're a Christian. I'm glad you were able to see the humor in it and brush it off.

I clearly stated, "Some titles pique my interest and I click on them".
I in no way stumbled into anything, it was a deliberate action of my brain telling my hand to move the mouse and my finger to press the left, not right click button.

I won't take the time to go back and read the rest of your posts to see what or who you have misrepresented. I would suggest you to guard your words a bit closer, as they do have meaning.

Please let me apologize if i offended you. I was not intentionally trying to twist anything in your posts, the first i was simply asking a question.
The second i was relating to my history of stumbling into atheist threads on other forums. Thats why i used the quotes to characterize MY actions, not yours. My second reaponse post was not intended to be some mischaracterization of your post. I thought i made it clear my second post was referencing my past, so i apologize if you read into that. I was giving you some context to my original question is all.

However, as you stated, you intentionally clicked on this thread. I have to think there is a reason for that. Seeds sown dont always sprout immediately. These kinds of threads can be seeds if you allow them. If youare hard ground that is what it is. I pray for the Lord to allow you to see what it is you need to see in these posts. Light is out there brother.