The Argali Clothing Project

[Jake Larsen]

The waist of the pant growing or not growing has nothing to do with where the fly zipper stops. Even if a wear tester addressed that issue, it couldn't be attributed to the fly, either way. I don't understand why anyone wants to defend bad gear or inaccurate design call outs. Isnt that the opposite of this website?

How do we know it’s a bad gear design? Because somebody hiding behind a user name is saying so? Based on what exactly?

We try to do things based on real world testing and feedback here. If you’ve got something substantive to add, then please by all means, add away.

So again I ask…with all your years of experience, have you designed a pair of pants with the zipper running to the top? If so, what did you find out? What did your testers (or you) discover to be the downfall of that design? You’re claiming it’s a bad design. Why exactly?


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[Ryan Avery]

Argali is not the clothing world. They are literally the anti-clothing world. They have no background or experience.

I beg you to reach out blind to anyone with a clothing background. Call a tailor or seamstress or dry cleaner. Ask them for yourself. I have nothing to gain by bitching on rokslide, except educating the customers on the charlatans or the hunt space. Argali is just another one throwing their hat on the ring. Ironic that his marketing message for this whole project has been built on throwing big brands under the bus, but your right, me highlighting a blatant false claim is the fishy part here. Whatever man.

You came here, made a claim. Back it up, big boy.

 

[MT_Wyatt]

Argali is not the clothing world. They are literally the anti-clothing world. They have no background or experience.

I beg you to reach out blind to anyone with a clothing background. Call a tailor or seamstress or dry cleaner. Ask them for yourself. I have nothing to gain by bitching on rokslide, except educating the customers on the charlatans or the hunt space. Argali is just another one throwing their hat on the ring. Ironic that his marketing message for this whole project has been built on throwing big brands under the bus, but your right, me highlighting a blatant false claim is the fishy part here. Whatever man.

You are right. Had plenty of the clothing world and guess what lotta suck there. Obviously there’s some good. I can tell you there’s a lot of piss poor ideas in the hunting market. What they are trying to do is a tad different than most hunting clothing retailers.

Here’s an idea; get some tested and baseline it to something you have experience with and explain why it’s so bad. If you want to profess your résumé, go ahead and drop some brands that you’ve done work for, otherwise it’s a hard ask to just take you as any type of authority. Show me some field testing. Argali has sure shown theirs.

 

[Ryan Avery]

I just did

Don't need to test bad ideas that I know don't work.

Nothing here is new. Its not a tad different. We were promised that it would change and be the best hunting clothing available. And they release 2 Attack pant replicas and a cheap grid fleece I can buy from 100 other brands. People here are buying words and promises, not good gear.

Not really,

You're on here, multi-quoting, and have shared IPs with people I know. I bet I know you.. What are you hiding from?

 

[Jake Larsen]

I have made many snow/ski pants where the fly technically goes to the "top" of the pant, but those pants dont have waistbands at all. Its a feature that you will see to eliminate bulky seams on heavy fabrics, bulk for layering, or where you need to operate the open and close of a pant in cold weather or with gloves. Buttons, snaps, etc dont work in those scenarios, but are more stable and common. Another type of garment where you will see zippers going to the top edge are womens skirts and pants, because they're hips are wider than their waist, more so then mens', and if a zipper comes loose, it will stop itself as it descends to the wider section of the hip. These are also secured at top with a hook, button, etc...

But ultimately, as I said in my very first comment, the exposed portion if a zipper can be between 3/8" and 5/8", depending on how its sewn. A raw zipper trim is about 7/8" wide in total, so lets give the benefit of the doubt, and say 1" of a zipper is in play here, both tape and teeth. An entire waistband in the case of these specific pants can measure anywhere from 29"-43". Lets say the average is 36", just for this scenario. That would man that less than 3% of the entire waistband is interacting with the body. Thats moisture, outside climate, all attributing to how the pant fits. 97% of the waistband is contacting the body, that is fluctuating in body weight and movement. And its nylon, which absorbs moisture (sweat, vapor, precipitation) because it is naturally hydrophyllic, even with DWR, and will affect its long term memory (how its shaped and if it can retain its shape) and durability, because nylon fibers swell and dont shrink again until after wash. The zipper centered at the front of the fly, attributing to less than 3% of surface, cannot alter these things, and will not protect the material from responding to them. The fabric will take on shape and alter from basic wear, and unfortunately, it will GROW, changing the fit. Wear these fishing in the summer. Sweat in them for 3 days. Measure them before and after and tell me im wrong.

Hope this helps.

“Elimination of bulky seams” - excellent, that’s going to create a flatter waistband with less chafe/hotspot potential

“Operating the opening and closing of the pant in cold weather or with gloves” - sounds a lot like mid-late season hunting conditions

You just spelled out two additional benefits of a zipper going to the top of the pants.

Your whole point about zipper width is a non issue. Whatever closure style is chosen is going to be “less than 3%” of the entire waistband. So if the waistband is going to stretch, the closure style likely has little to no bearing whatsoever (to my logic). Which means every pair of pants is going to altar shape somewhat with wear. Probably has a lot more to do with the material would be my guess.

Here’s what’s not a guess. TESTING. Which these pants have had. Some of us have been following the development and testing of these pants from the beginning. Some of us have given real world feedback on issues we’ve had from dozens of other pants, both hunting and non-hunting brands. We’ve given feedback, seen Brad/Argalj respond, and seen the product development real time. Then we’ve seen the testers discuss their experiences.

A waistband that stretches out was one of the specific problems these pants set out to solve. There’s been positive feedback that these don’t have that issue. Whether that’s a factor of the zipper, the fabric, the sewing, or some combination really doesn’t matter. What matters is results. Which again, you can hypothesize about all day long. But until you’ve tested….


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[Jake Larsen]

I just did

Don't need to test bad ideas that I know don't work.

Nothing here is new. Its not a tad different. We were promised that it would change and be the best hunting clothing available. And they release 2 Attack pant replicas and a cheap grid fleece I can buy from 100 other brands. People here are buying words and promises, not good gear.

A total unwillingness to test does check out for somebody who used to design for hunting clothing companies. How can you possibly know it’s a bad idea without testing it? No wonder we needed Argali to get into the clothing side of the industry

This is sounding a whole lot like a personal vendetta or smear campaign…

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[octobergoatlord]

“Elimination of bulky seams” - excellent, that’s going to create a flatter waistband with less chafe/hotspot potential

“Operating the opening and closing of the pant in cold weather or with gloves” - sounds a lot like mid-late season hunting conditions

You just spelled out two additional benefits of a zipper going to the top of the pants.

Your whole point about zipper width is a non issue. Whatever closure style is chosen is going to be “less than 3%” of the entire waistband. So if the waistband is going to stretch, the closure style likely has little to no bearing whatsoever (to my logic). Which means every pair of pants is going to altar shape somewhat with wear. Probably has a lot more to do with the material would be my guess.

Here’s what’s not a guess. TESTING. Which these pants have had. Some of us have been following the development and testing of these pants from the beginning. Some of us have given real world feedback on issues we’ve had from dozens of other pants, both hunting and non-hunting brands. We’ve given feedback, seen Brad/Argalj respond, and seen the product development real time. Then we’ve seen the testers discuss their experiences.

A waistband that stretches out was one of the specific problems these pants set out to solve. There’s been positive feedback that these don’t have that issue. Whether that’s a factor of the zipper, the fabric, the sewing, or some combination really doesn’t matter. What matters is results. Which again, you can hypothesize about all day long. But until you’ve tested….


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Elimination of bulky seams with bulky static fabric. Not lightweight stretchy fabric. And this pant DOES have a waistband.

The zip to the top helps in operation in cold weather WITHOUT an additional closure, like button or snap.

Did you read anything i wrote?

 

[Jake Larsen]

Elimination of bulky seams with bulky static fabric. Not lightweight stretchy fabric. And this pant DOES have a waistband.

The zip to the top helps in operation in cold weather WITHOUT an additional closure, like button or snap.

Did you read anything i wrote?

I read it quite carefully.

Your opinions about this being a bad idea are all based on feels so far. You *think* it sounds like a bad idea. You have no idea, because by your own admission (now twice) you’ve never designed/tested a pair of pants made with a soft shell type fabric with a zipper to the top

Argali has. And they’ve been tested, with positive results. How do we know? Because we’ve been following this from the beginning. Some of us KNOW the testers, or have followed them for years on this platform. They have credibility. You have none so far, and are certainly not helping yourself out in that regard.

All of this makes you really come across as somebody with a vendetta, making baseless attacks.


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[octobergoatlord]

I read it quite carefully.

Your opinions about this being a bad idea are all based on feels so far. You *think* it sounds like a bad idea. You have no idea, because by your own admission (now twice) you’ve never designed/tested a pair of pants made with a soft shell type fabric with a zipper to the top

Argali has. And they’ve been tested, with positive results. How do we know? Because we’ve been following this from the beginning. Some of us KNOW the testers, or have followed them for years on this platform. They have credibility. You have none so far, and are certainly not helping yourself out in that regard.

All of this makes you really come across as somebody with a vendetta, making baseless attacks.


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I tap out. Enjoy preaching to your own choir.

 

[realunlucky]

Dang missing all the Friday night drama happening on this thread.

 

[Brad@Argali]

I can't believe I have to write this. I literally created a rokslide account just to post this comment. And this is for the Argali team, Brad Brooks, and more specifically, the customer. I have been designing clothing in the outdoor industry for over 20 years. I moved into the hunting industry about 12 years ago, then exited back to snow sports/mountaineering, etc after 6 years (I would rather just hunt then make things for hunters)

Please take note: a pant zipper going to the top edge of the waist band WILL NOT prohibit waistband growth in any way. I don't know who told them that or why they didn't vet that out, but in my 20+ year career, that is hands down the most absurd claim, and outright lie, I have ever seen published on a brands website for a product. Please do not fall for that type of low hanging snake oil. 5/8" width of zipper tape and teeth will never assist in 29" (on the low end) of fabric responding to weight, moisture, climate, debris, etc. . .

Another claim that caught my eye: "one handed zipper operation". No kidding man, its a horizontal zipper. Thats like saying you use an umbrella in the rain so you don't get wet.

This type of pandering drives me crazy. Brad takes a lot of shots at bigger brands in the industry, and here he is talking down to his own customer. Kind of wild to me. Based on 6months of inflated claims and big marketing talk, to come to market with this must be a joke. Like I said, I've been doin this a long damn time. I don't even want to touch the stuff after reading lazy copy like that. Do way better-the customer deserves it.

My goodness. Happy Friday there bud. I think you do need a beer (or maybe 10), to calm you down a bit.

I always appreciate and encourage dialogue, debate and difference of opinion on gear. It's how we make things better. Don't worry, I'm not offended, even though you hurled a bunch of insults at me for no apparent reason. But if you're going to call someone a liar, at least use your real name instead of being a coward. I realize that's asking a lot, but it's the honorable thing to do.

I don't care if you don't like or agree with what we're doing, but if there is one thing we have done consistently as a company for 10 years is encourage brutal honesty and transparency. There's no upside to me getting in an argument with a jerk like you on the internet, but our waistband does have an interstitial lining, which does miminize stretch over time. I've tested it, as have a couple dozen other people. And yes, having the zipper tape extend to the top of the waist band does take the slop out of the button closure and help secure your waist band better. Don't agree? I don't care, it's the truth. Does the zipper tape completely stop pants from stretching? Absolutely not, and I never said it did.

Wasting my time on cowards like you isn't worth it, so this is the only post I'm going to make responding to you. You need a hobby, and a life.

 

[Car Ramrod]

Elimination of bulky seams with bulky static fabric. Not lightweight stretchy fabric. And this pant DOES have a waistband.

The zip to the top helps in operation in cold weather WITHOUT an additional closure, like button or snap.

Did you read anything i wrote?

Steve Rinella, that you? How’s First Lite doing?

 

[Ryan Avery]

Rokslide encourages honest and passionate debates. I don't mind if you think Brad's gear is terrible or the best.

However, calling someone a liar while hiding behind a fake username is cowardly and will not be tolerated.

 

[MT_Wyatt]

I want NAMES before the hammer comes out