The 6UM

[gabenzeke]

Ok will have to take a listen to that podcast. Last question if energy doesn't matter only velocity what pistol are you carry for protection in archery season in grizzly country?

I'm not in any way trying to be facetious, but you really need to read all the threads where Form is contributing. All these questions youve asked, and the follow up questions that you will ask after someone answers have been debated ad nauseum. Start with the 223 for elk deer bear and moose thread.

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[longrange13]

Ok will have to take a listen to that podcast. Last question if energy doesn't matter only velocity what pistol are you carry for protection in archery season in grizzly country?

I’d look at getting either a Glock g20 or g40 10mm. 15 rounds of rapid fire action. I like Buffalo bores 190gr dangerous game load. I’ve shot it in ballistic gel and water jugs and you get around 6 feet of penetration with it.

 

[longrange13]

I'm not in any way trying to be facetious, but you really need to read all the threads where Form is contributing. All these questions youve asked, and the follow up questions that you will ask after someone answers have been debated ad nauseum. Start with the 223 for elk deer bear and moose thread.

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This is a good point.

 

[mt100gr.]

it's happening.....again....

 

[Archer86]

Listen to the podcast lots of good Info. Looks like energy is not a big concern looks like the 6.5 creedmoor aka original manbun is good alot furthered then I originally thought. Back to the new 6 ultra manbun thread sorry to derail .

 

[Axlrod]

it's happening.....again....

It's double. An energy debate AND a handgun for bear!

In my best Boo Boo bear voice " The ranger (Ryan) isn't going to like this one Yogi!"

 

[huntnful]

How much time have you guys spent with the Berger 108 Elite Hunter? @Ryan Avery @Formidilosus

Looks like it only gives up .005 BC to the 115 DTAC. But should easily be able to be pushed 100+fps faster in a 1-8 twist.

Curious on your views of this for sure.

 

[Formidilosus]

How much time have you guys spent with the Berger 108 Elite Hunter? @Ryan Avery @Formidilosus

Looks like it only gives up .005 BC to the 115 DTAC. But should easily be able to be pushed 100+fps faster in a 1-8 twist.

Curious on your views of this for sure.

Bergers generally aren’t my preference. They kill fine, including the 108gr. But they have a long neck length in tissue and they don’t exit.

 

[huntnful]

Bergers generally aren’t my preference. They kill fine, including the 108gr. But they have a long neck length in tissue and they don’t exit.

Perfect. Thank you for the response. I did notice most 115 DTAC reports had exits

 

[Formidilosus]

Perfect. Thank you for the response. I did notice most 115 DTAC reports had exits

You give up short neck length to get exits generally with DTAC’s. With ELD-M’s and X’s you give up exits for immediate upset. Both are good, just different. With most Bergers you give up immediate upset and exits to get a very wide wound from 6” to around 14”.

 

[85zero17]

You give up short neck length to get exits generally with DTAC’s. With ELD-M’s and X’s you give up exits for immediate upset. Both are good, just different. With most Bergers you give up immediate upset and exits to get a very wide wound from 6” to around 14”.

For clarification then….in terms of terminal performance, in your opinion

DTAC - ELDM - ELDX - BERGER

for this chambering

In that order

 

[huntnful]

You give up short neck length to get exits generally with DTAC’s. With ELD-M’s and X’s you give up exits for immediate upset. Both are good, just different. With most Bergers you give up immediate upset and exits to get a very wide wound from 6” to around 14”.

Great explanation. It's much appreciated. Thank you

 

[Formidilosus]

For clarification then….in terms of terminal performance, in your opinion

DTAC - ELDM - ELDX - BERGER

for this chambering

In that order

No, not necessarily. It’s what specific behavior each person weighs most. The DTAC’s below 2,400’ish FPS impact, generally penetrate 4-6 inches then begins to yaw. Sometimes fragmenting and sometimes not. Generally exiting elk, and so far always exiting deer. It also doesn’t really seem to have a lower limit velocity to that upset- at least to around 1,500fps. The benefit is very wide velocity impact range, exits, and good wound channels after 8’ish inches. The con is the neck length and variable behavior.

ELD-M and X’s upset near immediately, about 50% of the time they will exit deer sized animals, or maybe a bit more. They generally do not exit elk, though they consistently do make it to the offside. They have a lower limit of 1,800fps+ impact for consistent upset. Their advantage in tissue is immediate and consistent upset in tissue and a relatively wide and long wound channel. The price is lower limit upset velocity, and reduced chance for exits on large animals.

Berger Hunting, and VLD’s generally penetrate 4-6 inches before yawing and fragmenting heavily. They only sometimes exit deer sized animals, and almost never elk, though consistently make it to the offside. They have a lower limit impact velocity of 1,900 to 1,800fps. On chest shots, the neck length and rapid fragmentation generally occurs center of the chest cavity, and on the whole will result in the fastest time to incapacitation. The cost, is that long neck length, lack of exits, and somewhat variable performance.



For me-

DTAC’s- very good elk bullets. Ok I’m deer, would not use on black bear by choice.

ELD-M/X- Consistent and solid performance in all animals. Excellent in deer and bear, good in elk. The 103gr ELD-X I need more experience with, and will get more this year.

Berger Hunting/VLD- on good chest shots very good wounding. On high or low edge hits, the neck length can and will result in minimal wounding. For me they are not my choice for how and what I hunt, and how animals are missed or wounded.

 

[Formidilosus]

Great explanation. It's much appreciated. Thank you

You are welcome.

 

[PathFinder]

For the DTAC, I think it's worth considering the difference in the deep cut version. I saw faster and more violent upset on smaller game (whitetail, coues, doe antelope) than the standard cut is described as having. Deep cuts are a good option for smaller, softer game than elk. No exit on either shot on my elk this year, but both made it to the off side.

 

[Formidilosus]

For the DTAC, I think it's worth considering the difference in the deep cut version. I saw faster and more violent upset on smaller game (whitetail, coues, doe antelope) than the standard cut is described as having. Deep cuts are a good option for smaller, softer game than elk. No exit on either shot on my elk this year, but both made it to the off side.

That is correct, however I am speaking specifically about the deep cuts, and a better version that isn’t available to purchase. Above 2,400fos impact they are violent and work well. Below that, variability comes in.

 

[PathFinder]

That is correct, however I am speaking specifically about the deep cuts, and a better version that isn’t available to purchase. Above 2,400fos impact they are violent and work well. Below that, variability comes in.

Got it, all of these were between 325 and 550 yards so 2700 fps was the lowest impact velocity. That fits with what I observed.
Is the "better version" custom modified or a new product in development (if you can say)?

 

[BAKPAKR]

Oh I’ve plenty of 7mm STW experience. Still looking for a Winchester M70 Laredo in one.

If you found a M70 Laredo in 7mm STW, what bullet would you use in it?

 

[Formidilosus]

If you found a M70 Laredo in 7mm STW, what bullet would you use in it?

180gr ELD-M if the twist will work. If not, 162gr ELD-X/M.

 

[Ryan Avery]

7mm and Winchester…..


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