Tarp question

[Ben]

I'm looking into a tarp as a lighter alternative to my tent. I just have a question regarding sleep systems. For those who use a tarp, do you also use a bivy or foam pad on addition to your sleeping and blow up pad?

Thanks,

Ben

 

[muleman]

I use a UL bivy if there is the possibility of moisture and always run a sheet of tyvek under my pad.

 

[_Nick_]

I use a UL bivy if there is the possibility of moisture and always run a sheet of tyvek under my pad.

I too use an UL bivy in addition (Borah UL). However, I use a poncho tarp (being out in the desert) that rarely gets pitched unless rain is likely. I would definitely recommend the poncho-tarp/bivy combination for dry areas. For wetter areas, a bigger tarp (bigger than 8'/5') would be nice. The advantage of the poncho tarp is that it replaces my rain gear (weight savings). Having a bivy is nice, too, as I can keep the scorpions out of my sleeping bag...

So, if you're in a wet place, get a lightweight tarp (cuben is nice if you can afford it) that is maybe 6x9 or bigger for better comfort in the rain. If it will only rain rarely, I'd suggest looking into the poncho tarp alternative. YMMV.

Re groundsheet: I use a sheet of polycryo under my bivy if it's hot out and a very thin foam pad from granitegear if it's cold for extra insulation under my xtherm.

 

[CrzyTrekker]

A bivy isn't strictly necessary. I run a SuperTarp with a small Tyvek sheet under my ThermaRest.

 

[Ben]

Thanks for all the replies! Would you still recommend a bivy with a floorless shelter like the mountain smith lt?

 

[muleman]

Thanks for all the replies! Would you still recommend a bivy with a floorless shelter like the mountain smith lt?

Condensation and not outside moisture will be the concern in the Mountain LT or any floorless shelter. If you can stay away from the sides and vent you will be fine.

 

[arthurvino]

Yes

 

[_Nick_]

Thanks for all the replies! Would you still recommend a bivy with a floorless shelter like the mountain smith lt?

It depends.

1) Will it be buggy where you'll be?

2) Do you need the added warmth of the bivy?

If yes to both, then a bivy inside a shelter could be useful. If yes to (1) but no to (2), you might be better off with some sort of inner bug liner than a bivy, especially if your shelter will accommodate more than one person. It just becomes a weight game at that point.

The main reason I like my bivy is for the flexibility of NOT having to pitch my tarp.

 

[Ben]

1) Never sure until I get there. However, I'm the guy that gets eaten alive while everyone else is just fine

2) Nope

So now, with the bivy and tarps that I can afford, I'm still looking at 3lbs when my tent is just below 4lbs, which is heavy for a tent. So, with that in mind, why would you do the tarp/bivy when you can get a tent that weighs the just about the same?

 

[muleman]

It depends.

1) Will it be buggy where you'll be?

2) Do you need the added warmth of the bivy?

If yes to both, then a bivy inside a shelter could be useful. If yes to (1) but no to (2), you might be better off with some sort of inner bug liner than a bivy, especially if your shelter will accommodate more than one person. It just becomes a weight game at that point.

The main reason I like my bivy is for the flexibility of NOT having to pitch my tarp.

Good point about the bugs. Bugs used to be my biggest concern. Now, for my frequented areas, moisture management is my biggest problem. I haven't noticed significant warmth from my UL bivy. It does stop drafts well though.

I do agree that a UL bivy is a great tool to have for right around half a pound.

 

[muleman]

1) Never sure until I get there. However, I'm the guy that gets eaten alive while everyone else is just fine

2) Nope

So now, with the bivy and tarps that I can afford, I'm still looking at 3lbs when my tent is just below 4lbs, which is heavy for a tent. So, with that in mind, why would you do the tarp/bivy when you can get a tent that weighs the just about the same?

Lower weight and the ability to tromp around in my shelter with boots on is why I use a tarp and/or floorless shelter. Seriously I'm cleaner floorless than I am in a tent and I don't worrry about abusing the floor of my tent.

 

[JDeanP]

Lower weight and the ability to tromp around in my shelter with boots on is why I use a tarp and/or floorless shelter. Seriously I'm cleaner floorless than I am in a tent and I don't worrry about abusing the floor of my tent.

There's also the benefit of leaking to the downhill side without leaving the shelter at night.

 

[Justin Crossley]

1) Never sure until I get there. However, I'm the guy that gets eaten alive while everyone else is just fine

2) Nope

So now, with the bivy and tarps that I can afford, I'm still looking at 3lbs when my tent is just below 4lbs, which is heavy for a tent. So, with that in mind, why would you do the tarp/bivy when you can get a tent that weighs the just about the same?

You will be saving some weight. My entire sleep system (Quilt, pad, bivy and tarp) weigh under three pounds total. I understand that you aren't going that light but over time you can upgrade each piece to meet your needs.

Since I went to a tent/ tarp without a floor, I can't believe I ever used a tent. I can cook and eat under/ inside my shelter without worrying about burning the floor or making a mess, and it is so much nicer to put your boots on while sitting on your sleeping pad.

 

[_Nick_]

1) Never sure until I get there. However, I'm the guy that gets eaten alive while everyone else is just fine

2) Nope

So now, with the bivy and tarps that I can afford, I'm still looking at 3lbs when my tent is just below 4lbs, which is heavy for a tent. So, with that in mind, why would you do the tarp/bivy when you can get a tent that weighs the just about the same?

Ben, I think you're the same guy I advised on the 'lightweight' sub-forum. For some reference, my bivy plus poncho tarp weighs 16.7oz with guylines. You can get a tarp (cuben) lighter than my poncho tarp, but it doesn't serve the poncho purposes (though I could get a lighter poncho even, but the GoLite poncho tarp is quite cheap relative to the cuben alternatives... not worth the 2oz savings... again, have to calculate out oz/$)

The point that I made in the other thread is that, for the most part, going lightweight requires a significant expenditure of capital (once you've gotten rid of excess/unneeded things). If you can only afford a bivy/tarp combo right now that will put you in the 3lb range, then don't spend the money. Wait until you can afford a tarp/bivy combo that will put you in the sub 1lb range.

For example, the borah cuben bivy comes in at 4.2oz and $175 (http://borahgear.com/cubenbivy.html) and the zpacks 6'x9' cuben tarp comes in at 4.7oz and $190 (http://www.zpacks.com/shelter/tarps.shtml). You could make both of those pieces of gear for a bit cheaper if you've got sewing skills. That would come in at under 9oz for a flexible sleeping setup (assuming you've got guylines and stakes). However, it would be spendy (but not THAT spendy compared to a lot of shelter costs).

Save your money, use the gear you have. Then, when you want to upgrade, upgrade once. I've learned this the hard way. I know this isn't fun advice... but you'll thank me later.

Edited to add: I would also suggest sticking with a tent until you have gotten sufficiently comfortable with your skills outdoors. Get a cheap blue tarp and practice pitching it. Go out in shitty/terrible weather and practice your skills. Basically, tarping requires a bit more skill and risk than tenting (though marginal) and some of the other ways to save weight likewise substitute skills for gear.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Spot on advice Nick

 

[_Nick_]

Ben, I posted my gear list over in this thread: http://www.rokslide.com/forums/showthread.php?19203-Whats-everyone-s-pack-weighing-loaded

That may at least give you some ideas. I went from a backpacking baseweight of around 35lbs when I started out, down to 25lbs with an expenditure of cash, down to 17lbs with another expenditure of cash, down to 9lbs with another expenditure of cash. I did it over around eight years, but it was much more costly than it could have been had I done it right. My hunting baseweight (with weapon) is back up to 25lbs, but that's due to hunting-specific necessities. I really wish I had just gone from 35lbs down to the 9lbs and used the cash wasted to fund more trips...

 

[Ben]

Thank you all for your advice, tips, and comments.

 

[AK Troutbum]

I just use a Xtherm inside a UL (6 oz.) bivy, so far, so good.

 

[squeekieslayer]

I dont know your budget, but I am running a go lite poncho tarp and a ti goat omni raven bivy. Total about 205 bucks and weighs just over 15 ounces with guy lines.
the weight of the bag/pad is irrelevant to the discussion as it would be the same for you with a tent or a tarp set up.


Joe

 

[Mike7]

Ben, I would disagree with some of the above sentiment. You can do "a lot" better in wt and functionality, even with a cheaper nylon floorless shelter with or without a bivy, and without going cuben. Also, I have found that in any floorless shelter that I have slept in which goes all of the way to the ground on at least 3 sides, like the Mountainsmith shelter, you can have a lot of condensation (even with the one end open). I use a pyramid shelter that pitches up off of the ground on all 4 sides and has a vent at the peak. It has very little condensation typically, and I wouldn't be afraid to go without a bivy, especially if not using a down sleeping bag/quilt. If you go with a bivy then you probably don't need a tyvek/polycryo ground sheet to protect your air pad. There are other light weight bug netting options also if not using a bivy.

I also disagree with the sentiment that you have to be more careful with site selection when not using a tent. I have found just the opposite with pyramid shelters anyway. One example, is when you have a depression under your tent which catches water, and your tent floor leaks...then your entire tent floor gets wet. In a floorless shelter, you just don't sit anything down in that spot if it needs to stay completely dry. Another example, is that you don't have to have the ground fully cleared to pitch a floorless shelter. I have pitched my pyramid over wood piles and alongside narrow game trails, where there is just enough cleared flat room for me to lie down, while the shelter is just suspended above the surrounding logs, rocks, and bushes.

The poncho shelter would be very enticing for me, if I didn't need to have a rain jacket anyway for going off trail where I hike/hunt. A poncho is not very functional for me when trying to go through thick wet alders/brush.