SWFA 6X and 3-15X observations and questions

[Crow Hunter TN]

I got my backordered SWFA 6X and 3-15X Mil Quad scopes.

The reticles on the 6X do not appear to be the same size as each other or large enough in general. I adjusted the diopters at infinity looking at the sky. They are all adjusted very close to one another.

The drawing on their site says that the main crosshairs should be .07 mil thick on the 6X and .06 mil thick on the 3-15X.

2 of them, serial numbers XXXX0014 and XXXX0009 have much thicker cross hairs, to the point that the mil diamond and the half mil hash marks are almost the same to my eyes.

2 of them, serial numbers XXXX0018 and XXXX0106 are noticeably thinner and the mil diamond and half mil hashes are distinct but the main cross hairs are very thin. Noticeably thinner at 6X than the same setting on the 3-15X scopes that are supposed to be .06 mil.

Comparing it to my Trijicon Credo Mil Hash, they are both noticeably thinner. The Trijicon is a SFP scope and the reticle is supposed to be .05mil thick.

I would assume that the SWFA 6X (.07mil) scopes should be more prominent than the Trijicon (.05mil) by a noticeable margin as they are both SFP scopes.

I would also assume that the 6X scopes should all be nearly identical. At least not noticeable to an untrained eye. My wife, who is totally clueless about scopes looked through both and noticed 2 of them being "smaller" than the other two. I mixed them up and handed them to her without telling here which one was which.

Did I get a couple of duds? I looked through them at the last of shooting light and the Trijicon was SIGNIFICANTLY easier to use at 6X than the SWFA and I could see the reticle far longer than either of the 6X versions with the thicker of the 2 6X versions being much easier.

Am I just unlucky or is this typical?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

The reticle on your Trijicon is only .05mil at the magnification setting it’s calibrated, and it will be thicker below that magnification and thinner above. If you’re comparing them on 6x and your reticle is true at a higher magnification then your reticle is going to be thicker than .05mil, your hash marks also aren’t going to be true.

As to the reticles not appearing the same size as each other in the SWFA’s, have you actually measured them on a target or something, or are you looking across the street with them?

 

[Crow Hunter TN]

Maybe I am wrong, but my understanding is that the reticle size is the reticle size, regardless of the zoom. With SFP 9X it will cover .05mil of angular measurement at say 100 yards but at 3X it will cover 3 times as much because the .5 mil is the same at any power. If it were a FFP scope, the reticle always covers the same amount of angular measurement no matter the zoom ratio because the reticle is on the image plane rather than being on the magnification plane.

The reticle size itself doesn't change.

The reticle itself is the same between the pairs of SWFA scopes. The crosshair thickness is what is different. It is very apparent when you look through them. It is especially apparent when you put them side by side like binoculars. They are identical in height and width on reticle but one has noticeably thinner bars. I had my wife look through them and she picked the ones that I thought were thinner every time. I randomly handed her each one and sometimes the same one more than once and she always could tell. Even with the scopes diopter set for my eyes with glasses and hers with contacts.

It is especially noticeable when you look through them as the light is fading. The thinner one disappears about 10-15 min earlier than the thicker one.

The thicker one is very difficult to distinguish the diamonds from the .5 mil marks, even against a haze filled sky at infinity. I was comparing them against blank walls or sky so that I was able to focus only on the reticle.

The thinner one is easier to tell the difference between the diamonds and the half mil marks.

The thicker ones look just like the one in this video like in the snip the reticle almost looks like a mil hash reticle:

The thinner one looks like the 10X one in this video where it looks like a mil quad:

The half mil and full mil spacing appears correct. They are the same on both, just the reticle wires are noticeably thinner on 2 of them and both were earlier in the production run (assuming the serial numbers are consecutive.

 

[Crow Hunter TN]

Fig1 Thicker reticle


Fig 2 Thinner reticle


Fig 3 Credo reticle

This is with them pressed against my back door glass with piece of paper trapped between. My phone camera resolution isn't the best but you can see the Fig 2 reticle is noticeably fainter, even in these pictures and how much more bold the

 

[redneckbmxer24]

You’re understanding it wrong. FFP is same mil thickness throughout the mag range, SFP is not. It’s the same reason the substensions remain true to scale throughout the mag range.

 

[Crow Hunter TN]

You’re understanding it wrong. FFP is same mil thickness throughout the mag range, SFP is not. It’s the same reason the substensions remain true to scale throughout the mag range.

I am pretty sure that is incorrect.

The reticle can't physically grow or shrink. That would violate several laws of physics.

On a SFP scope, the graduations change relative to the image, but not the thickness of the reticle or the graduations themselves. It is like having a ruler laying on a board. 6 inches is 6 inches (FFP) no matter how high you stand over the board. If you pick that ruler up and hold it 6 feet over the board, the graduations on the ruler don't physically change but it won't measure 6 inches on the board anymore, it will cover more relative to the distance from the board. It will cover more than 6 inches to your eyes (SFP).

The reticle on the Credo matches the graduations of the 6X when compared directly side by side. It is just noticeably more clear and pronounced. Especially against a mottled background. It almost disappears if you are looking up in a tree following a squirrel. Either the 6X scopes aren't really .07 mils thick or the Credo isn't really .05 mils thick. I suspect that the Credo is thicker than the reticle dimensions state.

Amongst the four 6X scopes there are two obvious pairings. I assume that whenever they changed over to make 6X scopes, someone didn't fully change over. 2 of them are noticeably thinner (and lower serial numbers) than both of the other two 6X scopes and the 3-15 at 6X. The 6X is supposed to be .07 mil and the 3-15 is supposed to be .06 mil. The two "good" 6X scopes are noticeably thicker than the 3-15 at 6X but the 3-15 is noticeably thicker than the "bad" 6X scopes. I suspect the reticles are thinner than they are supposed to be.

 

[sickles107]

If I'm understanding what your saying, the half mil hashes and the mil diamonds are hard to tell from one another?

If so, I have the same problem. I actually have two swfa 6x mq scopes. One has diamonds that stick out crystal clear, the other it seams the diamonds are faint and hard to tell apart from half mil hashes.

Swfa said they would warranty it, but going on 6 months waiting for availability.

Pictures don't do justice, but there is an obvious difference when looking through them.

 

[Crow Hunter TN]

That is exactly what I am seeing. The thin one looks like your top pic and the 2 thicker ones look like your bottom pic with even less definition between the marks. Mine look more like mil-dots to my eyes.

When I put the two up next to one another like binoculars, I can see them both together with the images/reticles superimposed on one another, just like binoculars. When I move them vertically away from each other, so the images separate, 2 of them are much thinner and I can tell the difference between the diamonds and the hash marks. The other 2 have much thicker cross hairs and diamonds and half mil marks are virtually indistinguishable. I have to count them.

If the "right" one is the thinner ones, and the "wrong" ones are thicker ones, I don't know that they will work for my eyes. The thinner one is very easy to lose for me without relatively light background. The heavier one is better.

Your pictures are better than mine but extremely close to what I am seeing. It almost looks like the thicker lines are masking the shape of the diamonds and hashes maybe.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I am pretty sure that is incorrect.

The reticle can't physically grow or shrink. That would violate several laws of physics.

On a SFP scope, the graduations change relative to the image, but not the thickness of the reticle or the graduations themselves. It is like having a ruler laying on a board. 6 inches is 6 inches (FFP) no matter how high you stand over the board. If you pick that ruler up and hold it 6 feet over the board, the graduations on the ruler don't physically change but it won't measure 6 inches on the board anymore, it will cover more relative to the distance from the board. It will cover more than 6 inches to your eyes (SFP).

The reticle on the Credo matches the graduations of the 6X when compared directly side by side. It is just noticeably more clear and pronounced. Especially against a mottled background. It almost disappears if you are looking up in a tree following a squirrel. Either the 6X scopes aren't really .07 mils thick or the Credo isn't really .05 mils thick. I suspect that the Credo is thicker than the reticle dimensions state.

Amongst the four 6X scopes there are two obvious pairings. I assume that whenever they changed over to make 6X scopes, someone didn't fully change over. 2 of them are noticeably thinner (and lower serial numbers) than both of the other two 6X scopes and the 3-15 at 6X. The 6X is supposed to be .07 mil and the 3-15 is supposed to be .06 mil. The two "good" 6X scopes are noticeably thicker than the 3-15 at 6X but the 3-15 is noticeably thicker than the "bad" 6X scopes. I suspect the reticles are thinner than they are supposed to be.

I’m not sure why I even bother to post here.

On a FFP the optical image you’re seeing is magnifying the reticle AND the field image the same, that’s why the substensions remain the same angular mil measurement. Therefor EVERYTHING magnifies including the reticle in every dimensions INCLUDING LINE THICKNESS.

On a SFP reticle you are magnifying the image only, therefor the reticle appears to have thicker lines in relation to the target at lower magnification and thinner lines and obscures less of the target at high mag.

Therefor if you have a fixed 6x and a FFP and you put them on 6x and compare them to a SFP optic on 6x that has a calibrated reticle at 10x the reticle on the image at 6x is going to be larger. That’s why if you zoomed the same scope down to 5x you would doable your reticle values as everything would be twice the size in relation to the target.

Is it starting to make sense now?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

These scopes are by FAR the most finicky for getting the reticle dialed in for your eye. You HAVE to take your time and get the reticle focused to your eye. I just did a 3-9 last night and it took me 3 hours of going away and coming back to the scope to get it refined.

Clear blue sky, reticle on max zoom power, make minor adjustments that you may not even notice. Look away from the scope for a few min, let your eyes adjust and go back into the scope. Don’t let your eye get time to adjust and “focus” the reticle into view. If it’s not clear when you very first look at it, make adjustments.

I had to do the same thing with my 6x, it took about 3 or 4 hours of going away from the scope and going inside. Back outside to let my eye at adjust, look to infinity with just your eyes, look to different distances with just your eyes, then go into the scope. Rinse and repeat.

I have both the 3-9 and 6x perfectly focused now and they work great for hunting. I killed 6 deer last year with the 6x as far as 530 yards and as close as 30 yards. No issues with the reticle when hunting at all.

 

[BBob]

If you don’t have experience with a FFP scope with adjustable parallax it can be more difficult to get the reticle adjusted properly. This is very common. There is a procedure to do it correctly. SFP are definitely easier. I’m not saying you don’t have an issue but that you might not.

Set to Max Power (obviously skip this on the fixed 6x).

Set parallax to Infinity (don’t skip this part)

Point it at a solid, light background like a white wall or blue sky. You don't want anything except a solid, light color to look at.

Start from the diopter all the way into the occular and rotate out.

Only stay in the scope for brief periods while checking the adjustment. Give your eyes rest between checks.

Once you’ve done that and are happy you may have to fine tune the balance between parallax and diopter outside at a distant target.

On a clear cool morning (minimal or no wind and mirage). Setup optic at a distant target.

Adjust all parallax out. If the focus and reticle isn’t clear fine tune the diopter. Bounce back and forth between the two and you should have it.

You could choose choose to fine focus and then check for parallax error if you’d like instead. Same outcome.

I do the above on our 500m range or looking the top of a utility pole outside the shop at ~300yds.

 

[Crow Hunter TN]

I’m not sure why I even bother to post here.

On a FFP the optical image you’re seeing is magnifying the reticle AND the field image the same, that’s why the substensions remain the same angular mil measurement. Therefor EVERYTHING magnifies including the reticle in every dimensions INCLUDING LINE THICKNESS.

On a SFP reticle you are magnifying the image only, therefor the reticle appears to have thicker lines in relation to the target at lower magnification and thinner lines and obscures less of the target at high mag.

Therefor if you have a fixed 6x and a FFP and you put them on 6x and compare them to a SFP optic on 6x that has a calibrated reticle at 10x the reticle on the image at 6x is going to be larger. That’s why if you zoomed the same scope down to 5x you would doable your reticle values as everything would be twice the size in relation to the target.

Is it starting to make sense now?

I am not sure you are understanding what I am saying.

I am not saying nor have I ever stated that the reticle graduations are different, nor am I saying that it is obscuring anything or a different size on any target. I am saying that the reticle, when looking at infinity at lower power and max power is larger and easier to see than the 6X reticle. Putting both scopes up to my eyes at the same time and superimposing both images together, like binoculars, the .05 mil thick SFP reticle is noticeably thicker, more defined and easier to see than the 6X reticle that is supposed to be .07 mils thick.

As a matter of fact, when you put both scopes up to your eyes and you can see that on the SFP scope at both 3X and 9X, and look at infinity, the graduations are the same as the 6X. It is just vastly easier to see. I expected that 6X with a .07 mil thick reticle vs the .05 mil on the Credo would be much more pronounced and easier to see. As it stands, I can't sit on my patio and look at squirrels 60 yards away in a hickory tree and find the reticle. I can "bracket" them, but at that distance, I couldn't make an ethical shot unless they moved to where there was more light so I could see the reticle. Doing the same thing on the Credo, I can see the reticle against the squirrel anywhere on the tree regardless of backlighting.

I don't know if this is a function of the glass or if the Credo dimensions published by Trijicon are incorrect and they are actually larger than specified.

 

[Crow Hunter TN]

These scopes are by FAR the most finicky for getting the reticle dialed in for your eye. You HAVE to take your time and get the reticle focused to your eye. I just did a 3-9 last night and it took me 3 hours of going away and coming back to the scope to get it refined.

Clear blue sky, reticle on max zoom power, make minor adjustments that you may not even notice. Look away from the scope for a few min, let your eyes adjust and go back into the scope. Don’t let your eye get time to adjust and “focus” the reticle into view. If it’s not clear when you very first look at it, make adjustments.

I had to do the same thing with my 6x, it took about 3 or 4 hours of going away from the scope and going inside. Back outside to let my eye at adjust, look to infinity with just your eyes, look to different distances with just your eyes, then go into the scope. Rinse and repeat.

I have both the 3-9 and 6x perfectly focused now and they work great for hunting. I killed 6 deer last year with the 6x as far as 530 yards and as close as 30 yards. No issues with the reticle when hunting at all.

I would buy that, but I set them last night. And came back this morning and the same 2 are thicker and the same 2 are thinner. I spent several hours last night and most of the day today doing various things around the house and coming back and checking/making adjustments. They are always the same. The 2 lower serial numbered scopes always look thicker.

I can also go to the extremes on both high and low diopter and while the reticle gets very blurry, it never gets smaller.

Plus my wife also noticed the same thing when I gave them to her and she and I have different optical prescriptions.

 

[Crow Hunter TN]

If you don’t have experience with a FFP scope with adjustable parallax it can be more difficult to get the reticle adjusted properly. This is very common. There is a procedure to do it correctly. SFP are definitely easier. I’m not saying you don’t have an issue but that you might not.

Set to Max Power (obviously skip this on the fixed 6x).

Set parallax to Infinity (don’t skip this part)

Point it at a solid, light background like a white wall or blue sky. You don't want anything except a solid, light color to look at.

Start from the diopter all the way into the occular and rotate out.

Only stay in the scope for brief periods while checking the adjustment. Give your eyes rest between checks.

Once you’ve done that and are happy you may have to fine tune the balance between parallax and diopter outside at a distant target.

On a clear cool morning (minimal or no wind and mirage). Setup optic at a distant target.

Adjust all parallax out. If the focus and reticle isn’t clear fine tune the diopter. Bounce back and forth between the two and you should have it.

You could choose choose to fine focus and then check for parallax error if you’d like instead. Same outcome.

I do the above on our 500m range or looking the top of a utility pole outside the shop at ~300yds.

I did this. Exactly other than there is no clear blue sky here due to the Canadians. It is a consistent formless white haze though.

If it were the way I am setting them up. Why are 2 fine and 2 are not? The statistical likelihood of me managing to get the same two serial numbered scopes adjusted wrong over and over again while getting two identical ones and a 3-15X42 correct is really, really remote.

I have adjusted all 4 of them both against the sky and against my kitchen wall.

2 of them, the lower serial numbered ones are noticeably thicker than the later ones and the diamonds and the half mil marks are indistinguishable, they just look mil-dots.

I have owned FFP scopes before. I owned 4 of the Athlon Helos BTR 2-12 scopes for several months and didn't have any issues getting them adjusted to my eyes. I got rid of them because the objective bell was too short to clear the barrel on my Tikka rifles for my length of pull without using a base and rings which made the scope/rifle combination really top heavy and unbalanced.

The reticle on them was also a little too thick at .08 mils which is why I thought the .07 mils on the 6X would be the goldilocks thickness, but apparently not.

I appreciate you trying to help though.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I would buy that, but I set them last night. And came back this morning and the same 2 are thicker and the same 2 are thinner. I spent several hours last night and most of the day today doing various things around the house and coming back and checking/making adjustments. They are always the same. The 2 lower serial numbered scopes always look thicker.

I can also go to the extremes on both high and low diopter and while the reticle gets very blurry, it never gets smaller.

Plus my wife also noticed the same thing when I gave them to her and she and I have different optical prescriptions.

Call SWFA and see if they made a change?

 

[BBob]

I’m not saying you don’t have an issue but that you might not.

If it were the way I am setting them up. Why are 2 fine and 2 are not?

So you’ve done everything you can and no solution so send them in and let SWFA sort it out.