Surface Drive mud motors for western River applications?

[Jesse Jaymes]

Kinda second part to a post a few weeks ago. Was asking about the best boat/motor for my application. Was asking about tiller Jets vs Prop. North Idaho/Western Montana rivers are the target. May need to run several miles from a launch. Varying water levels. Possible floating logs. Skinny water.

I've only seen a handful of "mud motors" on a boat in these parts. And those are dedicated Duck Boats for lake or flat water access.

Anyone other there have much experience with these Surface Drives? Can they be used to run some rapids or white-ish water? They are super spendy for 40 HP. They weigh 350 pounds. Not sure how much maintenance they require, and really worry about the longevity and service. Is this a limited lifespan item?

Basically asking can a 16ft flat bottom Lowe, Havoc, Excel or whatever....be paired with a 40hp Surface Drive and could you use that combo to fly fish some rivers? Could you run that all over the Missouri in Montana? What are the drawbacks?

 

[Bear_Hunter]

On a basic 16 ft. flat bottom boat, you probably wouldn't need to go 40 hp. I run a 35 hp surface drive on a 2056 Alweld. It'll do 24 mph with just me, and about 15 mph loaded with me + 600 lbs or so. I see you listed Excel, some of those are made for surface drives and are much heavier, so I'd probably want a 40 hp on one of those boats. To answer your other questions, the simpler the better. Electric trim, reverse, etc are all additional things that can break. Having a neutral switch is nice, but I don't have one and you get used to it.

Surface drives are impressive what they can do. Look at the videos on the excel site. Where I see it shine above a jet is when there is crud in the river (sticks/leaves) and the surface drive churns right through it while my buddy in a jet is stopping to shut down and clean his grate every 10 minutes. Weedy areas? No comparison. And I've taken mine through some pretty decent chop, whitewater not so much but I assume it'd be fine within reason. Multiple times I've hit logs just under the surface in turbid water and the motor just bounces over it. It's what they're designed to do. A prop? See ya later lower unit. The one situation where I would rather have a jet over a surface drive is when the water is maybe 6 or so inches for an extended distance. That shallow and the prop on a surface drive will be pushed up so that less of the prop is in the water, so you'll loose some propulsion and begin to slow down. Only a few places I've experienced that, and I'm usually in the wrong place in the river, but knock on wood never have been stuck. I don't have experience running rivers where you are so can't help ya there.

Service wise, generally the motors are pretty simple. Do your oil changes, don't mod the piss out of it to boost your HP and you should get many years of life out of it.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

Many thanks....seems your designator is AK, so I would take your experience as credible and more in line to what/where I want to run vs Arkansas or Missouri. For sure have watched hours of YT surface drive videos. But all are in brown water down South. Nothing up north unless it's in the Salt Lake flats. Not quite the same.

I have a smaller layout boat for duck hunting with a bigger Long Tail on it. It's a beast to drive. Dangerous AF in my opinion. 13hp Predator.

I could live without Reverse. No Neutral SUCKS. Standing up...when that prop hits the water (long tail) it DIGS and you're moving quick....even just at idle. Kinda hard to keep your footing. Don't really like it.

 

[Clarktar]

I think Tundra Talk has a few podcasts with a fellow named Temple that discusses mud motors..

@Nick Muche might know which episode?

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[Vandy321]

Mud motors were designed for nasty muddy stumpy vegetation filled rivers and bayous of the SE. They will work in open water, but are slow, loud (we're talking hearing protection req'd loud) and id much rather have an outboard if you don't need to run in <6-9" water.

A jet drive outboard on an breakaway electric jack plate would be my choice for out west.

I'd recommend you give gatortail or mud buddy a call and get the info straight from the folks who run them everyday.

Another thing to be wary of, alof of SWAs in the SE are starting to set horsepower limitations on mud motors for use inside their boundaries, the big 35s were tearing up the bayou. Im sure it won't be long before fish and game in the west gets wind and imposes similar restrictions.

 

[Bear_Hunter]

One more consideration, I burn about 2.5 gallons per hour at full throttle, which is about 3800-3900 rpm. I'll do 100 mile trips on a long weekend and burn maybe 20 gallons. It's nice not needing to haul a lot of fuel since fuel adds weight. But if you're not doing long trips, that may not be a consideration.

Yes some surface drives are loud-ish, mine not as much. Most are about on par with a 2 stroke outboard jet, if not a bit quieter, but it depends on HP and any mods. I wear ear pro regardless of motor, I've lost enough hearing!

 

[tt_johnsclist]

I’m pretty much a daily driver on a variety of surface drive mud motor rigs. I have no experience on western rivers, but lots on open water lakes and similar applications. I would pretty much agree with everything Bear Hunter says. My personal favorite is a Go-devil 37efi on an 18’ Gator Trax boat. The go-devils are simple, reliable, and low maintenance and you can add a rock guard to the prop which would be helpful in the rivers. The factory go-devil boats are great also.

 

[S.Clancy]

Can you drive a mud boat motor in 4-6" of water over gravel and cobbles? Cause you can with a jet boat.

 

[FLAK]

Many thanks....seems your designator is AK, so I would take your experience as credible and more in line to what/where I want to run vs Arkansas or Missouri. For sure have watched hours of YT surface drive videos. But all are in brown water down South. Nothing up north unless it's in the Salt Lake flats. Not quite the same.

I have a smaller layout boat for duck hunting with a bigger Long Tail on it. It's a beast to drive. Dangerous AF in my opinion. 13hp Predator.

I could live without Reverse. No Neutral SUCKS. Standing up...when that prop hits the water (long tail) it DIGS and you're moving quick....even just at idle. Kinda hard to keep your footing. Don't really like it.

I just put together a long tail kit with the 13hp predator, and you're spot on.
Total Suck and Dangerous.
I'd rather use my kayak.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

Can you drive a mud boat motor in 4-6" of water over gravel and cobbles? Cause you can with a jet boat.

Pretty much what I am asking and seeking

 

[S.Clancy]

Pretty much what I am asking and seeking

I ran a big jet on the Yellowstone for a full season of fisheries work. It was an 18 ft Wooldridge with a 200hp E-Tec, heavy boat. Absolutely unbelievable how little water that boat would rip in.

 

[Bear_Hunter]

Can you drive a mud boat motor in 4-6" of water over gravel and cobbles? Cause you can with a jet boat.

Absolutely, though if that's what I was primarily going to be driving in, I'd go with a jet. As I mentioned earlier, in water that shallow the surface drives begin to lose some propulsion as the prop gets pushed up out of the water. In most rivers where I've encountered that, usually the boat momentum plus whatever the prop can do is enough to get past the shallow run into the next pool, then away I go. But extended distances that shallow with gravel/cobble bottom and a surface drive would not be ideal, they aren't really made for that.

 

[ChrisA]

I'd pony up for a jet drive, those mud motors are extremely obnoxious to my ears.

Chris

 

[MallardSX2]

Can you drive a mud boat motor in 4-6" of water over gravel and cobbles? Cause you can with a jet boat.

You can but I wouldn't recommend stopping.

Dont ask...lol

I got a Gator-tail 1860 with a 35 HP motor I modified myself (Heads decked, port and polish instake ,mikuni carb, cam, roller rockers, exhaust ). It is probobly putting down 45-50 HP at 4000RPM's.

It will carry a load pretty good but not like a outboard will.

Mine is pretty reliable but I carry a lot of spare parts and tools with me just in case....

My father-in-law with a GA public land deer:

 

[Rich M]

Can you drive a mud boat motor in 4-6" of water over gravel and cobbles? Cause you can with a jet boat.

This is of course the question and IMO - the answer is no. It would tear up the river bottom and the SS prop.

I've got a longtail, buddies and my work have surface drives. Weeds, mud, logs, oysters and shell, but not rocks.

A longtail manufacturer named Scavenger used to say his props would be useable in rocks - not sure how long they'd last in a rocky river environment. Somethign has to give and it will be the props.

 

[Marmots]

I've ran a Go-Devil equipped Honda in interior Alaska and a big old Yamaha 105 with a jet unit in Idaho.

As others have said, long-tail motors are great in places where organic debris are the main obstacle, and jet boats are great in places where shallow water and rocks are the things you worry about.

The Go-Devil would just happily chug slowly through terribly weedy sloughs, but left me stranded on a bar occasionally. They are great in silt but cobble and rocks will still mess up a prop.


The jet unit I had would skim through 6 inches of water at 34 mph, but would clog up so fast as to launch you forward whenever it sucked up some algae. Which can happen every 30 seconds in the summer. But swerving around that algae is fun when you're fast and nimble. Jet boats are actually fun to drive.

Consequence-wise, I'd rather pull weeds out of my impeller than replace a prop or drive-shaft.

For western rivers where rocks are the main concern, nothing really beats a jet.

 

[Andyram_18]

Kinda second part to a post a few weeks ago. Was asking about the best boat/motor for my application. Was asking about tiller Jets vs Prop. North Idaho/Western Montana rivers are the target. May need to run several miles from a launch. Varying water levels. Possible floating logs. Skinny water.

I've only seen a handful of "mud motors" on a boat in these parts. And those are dedicated Duck Boats for lake or flat water access.

Anyone other there have much experience with these Surface Drives? Can they be used to run some rapids or white-ish water? They are super spendy for 40 HP. They weigh 350 pounds. Not sure how much maintenance they require, and really worry about the longevity and service. Is this a limited lifespan item?

Basically asking can a 16ft flat bottom Lowe, Havoc, Excel or whatever....be paired with a 40hp Surface Drive and could you use that combo to fly fish some rivers? Could you run that all over the Missouri in Montana? What are the drawbacks?

So what did you end up deciding after your research? I drive an excel with a high HP MB motor. Often Wondered if I can apply it to western River applications. After all, we run it on the snake frequently. most important thing I see is knowledge on how to read the River While running it.

 

[WildBoose]

they are totally different animals. You really need to figure out what conditions you will be running mostly and buy the one that fits that bill.
Mud/Sand/Veg...Jets<Mud
Rock/Gravel/Speed...Jets>Mud

 

[Invisiblecreek]

I have an aluminum flat bottom duck boat with a high hp performance surface drive, and run the rivers in the pnw all year long, from bass fishing to salmon to duck season I run mine year round, Rhett make a rock gaurd that bolts to your skeg of the outdrive, it has saved my bacon a couple times. At the end of the day it comes down to knowledge of the river system and reading water


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[Andyram_18]

Agreed. Anyone have any ideas on how to start scouting rivers remotely? I mean let’s face it I know i can’t just go hit any River. I’d like to know which sections my boat would be capable of. Maybe studying whitewater forums or River maps? Any thoughts?