Super Down made it's way into the shower....

[Matt W.]

I have been holding off on updating this thread since washing it and testing it out for the last few weeks. Maybe my body fat or metabolism has changed, but it does not seem nearly as warm at it was a year ago, Or maybe its all in my head?

Last winter I wore the jacket with two merino layers underneath down to -35C and was comfortable, now with the same two merino layers, I find myself cold when its around -5C. Anything lower now and I am really cold in it. Don't know what to think about it....

It appears you are not sure if it is you or the jacket that drives the changes. Yeah? The quote above makes it very hard for me to base/understand performance.

Is the jacket less lofty than it was originally? I'm no down expert, but I don't understand how it could lose warming ability in a year or so. Is the down "clumping"? I'm not trying to pick holes at your review, just seeking to better understand how the jacket is different than it was when it was performing more to your expectations. ??? From your comments I don't think the DWR coating has failed, right? Please don't take this as a jab, I'm just trying to better understand the performance change, and as I mentioned, I don't have much experience with down.

 

[WesternBounty]

Well after wearing the Super Down jacket all winter and 30 plus days in the field this spring bear hunting I thought it was about time to test her out in some real wet weather. So off to the shower I went. So if your into watching grown men in the shower, his video is for you!

I first weighed the jacket (size L) it hit the scales at 9oz or so. I know my meat scale is not the best one to use, but it's all I got.

[video=youtube;deLmVbYjMR8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deLmVbYjMR8&feature=youtu.be[/video]



After roughly a minute in the shower, I took her off and was completely dry and no noticeable water absorption by the down. Back on the scale it went and there was a gain of about .5-1oz. I thought I better head back in for a longer go, so back in for about 1min 50sec. I had one wet spot where water leaked through the chest pocket zipper. Other then that one spot I was completely dry and no noticeable loss of loft. Back on the scale and it gained roughly 3oz. After 15min the jacket was completely dry.

I hope this video helps some people out, and if there is a better test I can do, please let me know.

Thank you for sharing this video! Love it! Its why I am KUIUGirl and a firm believer in their clothing

 

[ChadS]

I totally understand your comments, I am just as confused.


After a lot of reading today and a couple phone calls to some local outdoor stores and two clothing companies who make down filled clothing, this is what I can come up with.

When I first received the SD jacket last over a year ago the DWR on the outer material and down worked great, and when I did the shower test last June, I had a very hard time getting the jacket wet and any of the down wet. The DWR was doing its job.

I have been told that DWR coating on the down can increase it's loft and raise the fill power rating of it as long as it is there. When the DWR wears off, it will lower the rating of the down as it will not be as lofty. Not as warm.....

The DWR on the outer material of the jacket also slows the breathability of the jacket and holds in more body heat. Unlike rain gear where DWR helps breathability, a thin shell fabric like the SD jacket, the DWR will bead moisture on the down side of the fabric, holding heat/moisture in. When this DWR wears off, breathability increases and more heat is lost.

Things that I have noticed that have changed in the performance of the SD

When I first used the coat last winter the outer material of the jacket became very crinkly when it was -10C and below. Now the jacket remains soft at all temps.

The jacket breaths very well now. Last year When getting a good sweat on, the inside of the jacket would get clammy and take a while to dry out. Now the jacket breaths very well and have not experienced the same clammy feeling any more.

When I washed the jacket a few weeks ago, it took very little effort to get the jacket wet and the down to clump. Unlike when I did the shower test. And yes I used a down safe soap and a dryer ball to help agitate the down while drying. Even now when I splash some water on it, the water does not bead.

I really am thinking that most, if not all the DWR coating on the down and shell have been worn off. I'll be the first to admit that I have used the coat hard since getting it. I sweat in it lots, I got it dirty, I wore it a ton, I used it as an outer layer many times. I used it like I would any other piece of clothing I own. Maybe its my fault and expected too much out of it.

I have tried to reapply a nikwax DWR treatment to it, but I have never had much luck with the stuff.

Everything you said leads me to believe I am headed right down this same road. The first time I wore the SD coat and it rained, it was still real new, the water beaded up and rolled right off. Not as much anymore since I washed it. I asked them on the phone if the Dead Down Wind soap I used would be alright. They said yes it would be fine. I think the DWR might not be real hardy

 

[dotman]

Well that sucks to hear, I would of thought the DWR would last more then a year.

Now this brings up an interesting topic for dry down use in sleeping bags, guessing temp rating changing and wet bags could result easily unless you never let the elements get to it.

 

[fillthefreezer]

Well that sucks to hear, I would of thought the DWR would last more then a year.

Now this brings up an interesting topic for dry down use in sleeping bags, guessing temp rating changing and wet bags could result easily unless you never let the elements get to it.

perspiration... ?

 

[dotman]

perspiration... ?

I think I'll stick with synthetic and not test it out.

 

[todd kelly]

Well that sucks to hear, I would of thought the DWR would last more then a year.

Now this brings up an interesting topic for dry down use in sleeping bags, guessing temp rating changing and wet bags could result easily unless you never let the elements get to it.

I'm sure doing a shower test and wearing it as much as I did when sweaty and getting it dirty did not help any. I'm sure if a guy looked after it and only wore it as intended the DWR probably does last a long time. I was told by Kuiu staff, the Down DWR has a wash rating of 20 washes. I'm not sure if that is high or low in the DWR world. I was also told to use nikwax down wash.

 

[RedStag]

Todd, Ive had a similar experience with my superdown hoody.

I first wore it as a mid layer in Northern Alberta in -30 to -40 and it performed very well, and it was very crunchy as you mentioned.
The DWR treatment does "wear off" whoich would explain why the material feels softer now, as does my hoody. However, I dont think the loss of the DWR treatmen should result in that much loss of performance.

I would wager that its a matter of perception, what were you doing when you were warm in 30 below? I have used down jackets from Patagonia and MEC, neither of which had even close to the same warmth for the weight.

Try comparing it to another down garment in the same day,might help? Also drying with the tennis balls can help evenly distribute the down.

 

[Matt W.]

I agree..... I think a lot of it is my head because I am looking for it to be not as good, but I can say for certain there has been a change, by how much. No real way to tell. I could let my wife wear it and she would say its a cold jacket at 10 above.

Todd, I don't mean to keep harping on this... But....
Its great to see the gear can handle some abuse, but your comments make it hard for me to really understand if the product is failing or if "it is all in your head." Its really difficult to make a decision for or against this jacket based on your info. ?? I've watched the Superdown with interest since it came out and it seems to do well for most folks.

In asking questions from KUIU I found out they have had very few jackets returned for warranty issues (good deal for them and us) and that the Toray Stunner Stretch fabric is down proof (i.e. will keep down from poking through). Based on this I am pretty excited to see what the new Sleeping Bags will be like. I've got multiple puff jackets, including the First Lite Uncompaghre, that work awesome. For me the biggest draw to the Superdown was the potential weight savings. I'd only use the Superdown when weight really mattered so it would never see the abuse you put yours through.

I think my take away from your comments so far is that the jacket will take a licking and keep on ticking, even when used beyond its design intent. I'm not sure I can gleam much about the warmth issue as you yourself seem confused about whether there is an issue there or not. Is this a fair assessment? I hope you don't think I am beating on you, I'm just very curious about this product line and trying to find more info on it.

Did you try something like these yet to see if it would help with your DWR issues?
http://www.nikwax.com/en-us/products/productdetail.php?productid=265&itemid=-1&fabricid=-1
http://www.mcnett.com/gearaid/spray-on-water-repellent#362211

Anyone else have a better product? I'm pretty anal about how my gear is washed and use Nikwax and McNett stuff on every wash and do the treatments every couple of washes. Probably waste a lot of money on the stuff, but my gear seems to hang in there pretty darn well.

 

[TXCO]

I really struggle on getting firm comparisons. For instance, I can walk around in my down jacket but if I am sitting still deer hunting, I am freezing. The other issue I am very concerned with is when the loft is compressed. I seem to get best performance when I use the SD as an outerlayer and not as a mid layer. I think the down is so fine and compresses/stores so easily that it loses loft relatively fast when other jackets are worn over it. Compressed downdoesnt provide much warmth...

 

[Matt W.]

I really struggle on getting firm comparisons. For instance, I can walk around in my down jacket but if I am sitting still deer hunting, I am freezing. The other issue I am very concerned with is when the loft is compressed. I seem to get best performance when I use the SD as an outerlayer and not as a mid layer. I think the down is so fine and compresses/stores so easily that it loses loft relatively fast when other jackets are worn over it. Compressed downdoesnt provide much warmth...

Interesting... Have you noticed this same effect with the synthetic fills?

 

[ChadS]

I really struggle on getting firm comparisons. For instance, I can walk around in my down jacket but if I am sitting still deer hunting, I am freezing. The other issue I am very concerned with is when the loft is compressed. I seem to get best performance when I use the SD as an outerlayer and not as a mid layer. I think the down is so fine and compresses/stores so easily that it loses loft relatively fast when other jackets are worn over it. Compressed downdoesnt provide much warmth...

x2 On this 100%. When I put my SD under an outer later is when I first started questioning the warmth. I think that this may make a BIG difference

I have to keep using this jacket before I can be certain that I am reporting solid information and not mental suspicions. But from what Todd already said, I think he is not just imagining things.

 

[Yellowknife]

I discussed this drawback back when SD first came out. The compressibility of down (especially the 700+ FP) means it is best used under loose outer layers. Not your imagination at all.

YK

 

[tipsntails7]

all this thread does is confirm my thoughts and am glad i went with first lites puffy, i really like it, have not really put it through the wringer but it has stood up extremly well to everything ive thrown at it so far, and is a much more functional outerpiece. Todd i would suggest getting your hands on one, from the way you used the superdown i feel this piece would be right up your alley.

 

[TXCO]

No matter the brand, if the down or primaloft is compressed, it will not retain heat. No loft = no air to warm up. I think what it comes down to is that there are many good options for different applications but not a 1 stop shop. I can wear heavier clothes when Im sitting still in a tree but I wouldnt want it when Im walking around, hiking, or backpacking.

 

[Stid2677]

all this thread does is confirm my thoughts and am glad i went with first lites puffy, i really like it, have not really put it through the wringer but it has stood up extremly well to everything ive thrown at it so far, and is a much more functional outerpiece. Todd i would suggest getting your hands on one, from the way you used the superdown i feel this piece would be right up your alley.

I have both the First Lite and the Kuiu SD Jacket,, I will agree that the FL puffy is an extremely good and warm jacket, but then it is TWICE the weight. So it all depends on how I'm hunting, is it TWICE as warm? I don't think so, but is is a lot tougher and more durable, so like I said, which one gets the call depends on the hunt I'm doing. For a hunt that I'm expecting wetter conditions and a shorter approach, then the FL is better, for a drier longer approach were weight is more important then I go with the Kuiu SD.

Have have just a few puffy jackets and I bought them all, so my option is based only on my experience. I owe no loyalty to anyone other than myself.


Steve

 

[Nick Muche]

You have a few puffy coats there Steve!

 

[Stid2677]

You have a few puffy coats there Steve!

One cold night on the mountain scarred me,, I think I have a PUFFY addiction.

 

[Nick Muche]

What is the fourth one from the left? Sadly, I own most of the others myself Hope the wife never takes a picture of them all!

 

[Stid2677]

That is the Go-Lite Men's Bitterroot Water Repellent Down Jacket, they had them on sale for 139.00 during Christmas, I blame Luke for that one Very warm, I wish the hood had a draw on it though. I use that one a lot around town.

http://www.golite.com/Mens-Bitterroot-Water-Repellent-Down-Jacket-P47041.aspx