Stumbled upon an outfitter's camp in a unit their not listed with.....

[RemiR7]

So I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way and maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, but last September I did a solo trip into a wilderness and came across an outfitter camp about 4 miles into the wilderness. Wall tent, cots, stoves, solar panels, archery targets, a whole setup with the outfitters named stamped on the tent with contact info. This camp looked kept up and the horse trail I took to get into the general area which later led to this had dead fall and logs cut somewhat recent so I don't believe it was left especially with the amount of gear that was up there. Now I've read through some regulations in the past about how outfitters are supposed to be registered apparently and make known what units they work in. Maybe I misread or doesn't apply to wilderness areas? So bored farting around at work i decided to get onto the Colorado Outfitters Association and was cross referencing units I've scouted to know possibly who I may run into/need for a pack out and who and how many outfitters are in the units. I looked up the one outfitter who's camp I came across out of curiosity and it was not listed in the unit I found the camp in. I didn't know if maybe the COA was not up to date or maybe they didn't need to register/license to be in a wilderness area. Didn't know if it would be worth calling Colorado game and fish as the security/military law enforcement side of me has got me wondering about it? Once again if this is barking up the wrong tree per say or not allowed ADMIN delete or let me know and I will gladly take it down. I'm not a fan of people who blatantly break the law.

 

[TFAvalanche]

Having had what was either an outfitter or a dude ranch ruin my solo Elk trip last year in NM with their damn posse loudly running through through public land on their way to private land I say burn em to the ground if they’re breaking the law.


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[BigAntlerGetter]

Not all outfitters are registered with the COA. Call the USFS in the area and report it to them. I am a outfitter and yes you are still required to be permitted in wilderness areas. The USFS is the permit issuer


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[Mighty Mouse]

Assuming the area you're referring to is within a National Forest, you should be able to find a list of permitted outfitters in the "Passes & Permits" section of the USFS webpage for that particular forest. For example, here's the relevant page for the San Juan NF: https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/sanjuan/passes-permits/event-commercial/?cid=stelprdb5173121

The local ranger district office would probably be the appropriate place to contact about potential outfitter violations if you were so inclined.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Illegal outfitting is regulated by both the USFS as well as CPW. But USFS would be permit violations


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[RemiR7]

Assuming the area you're referring to is within a National Forest, you should be able to find a list of permitted outfitters in the "Passes & Permits" section of the USFS webpage for that particular forest. For example, here's the relevant page for the San Juan NF: https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/sanjuan/passes-permits/event-commercial/?cid=stelprdb5173121

The local ranger district office would probably be the appropriate place to contact about potential outfitter violations if you were so inclined.

I noticed they are listed on the USFS page under pass and permits under "authorized Compartments" with just the creek name that ruins the the wilderness, but on the Colorado Outiftters Association page they are listed in a completely different unit and not the one I found it in? I'm assuming there was a mix up or system wasnt updated as I would assume both work hand in hand together somewhat.

 

[mike.adams.467]

Look up Idaho Guides and Outfitters Association to see which outfitters are assigned that unit.


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[mtnbiker208]

why not call and ask the outfitter before "turning them in"?

 

[Marble]

Not all outfitters are registered with the COA. Call the USFS in the area and report it to them. I am a outfitter and yes you are still required to be permitted in wilderness areas. The USFS is the permit issuer


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This here works well. I had an issue with an outfitter years ago and one stop at the USFS led to an abrupt change in behavior and attitude.

When you guys put a camp in the woods, you guys are required to register the location. Is that correct? Meaning the USFS needs to know the details?

 

[positivepete!]

Report it! If they are in the clear then no harm done. If they are breaking the law you will be helping all of us out!!!

 

[ScreamingPotato]

why not call and ask the outfitter before "turning them in"?

I mean, if somebody's doing something illegal and you call and ask them about it I'm not sure you're going to get a fully truthful response, yeah?

Report it! If they are in the clear then no harm done. If they are breaking the law you will be helping all of us out!!!

Seems like this is good advice, if they're all good then no harm done, if they're shady then eff'em.

 

[TFAvalanche]

why not call and ask the outfitter before "turning them in"?

Because people lie.


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[RemiR7]

why not call and ask the outfitter before "turning them in"?

It is not my job nor do I have the authority to be questioning someone on the legalities of their operations. It is my duty I feel though as a law abiding citizen and a responsible outdoorsman to report a violation if I see/or feel one is/had happening and let the propert authorities handle it if indeed lawd/violations are beino broken.

 

[RemiR7]

Not all outfitters are registered with the COA. Call the USFS in the area and report it to them. I am a outfitter and yes you are still required to be permitted in wilderness areas. The USFS is the permit issuer



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thank you, appreciate the insight. I would rather pass it along and let proper authorities handle it and hopefully it is just a simple mix up as I would assume it is. I was unsure of exactly who to contact to report the situation with the multiple agencies that deal with parks/wildlife/recreation, etc.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

This here works well. I had an issue with an outfitter years ago and one stop at the USFS led to an abrupt change in behavior and attitude.

When you guys put a camp in the woods, you guys are required to register the location. Is that correct? Meaning the USFS needs to know the details?

Our camps are pre determined, as in you have these 5 camps in these 5 spots. You can use from this time to this time. Everything is registered. You can’t just say I’m gonna put my camp here this year because I seen more elk there last year. My 13 camps are gps marked


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[mntnguide]

Do you really think an outfitter would knowingly set up a camp with his name all over it where it's not supposed to be? In Wyoming, barely 50% of all outfitters are part of the WYOGA organization. A quick call to forest service regarding permitted outfitters in that area should solve your question. The COA is not the licensing authority of any permits issued to an outfitter

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[Marble]

Our camps are pre determined, as in you have these 5 camps in these 5 spots. You can use from this time to this time. Everything is registered. You can’t just say I’m gonna put my camp here this year because I seen more elk there last year. My 13 camps are gps marked


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Got it. That's what I thought. This outfitter got mad because we camped in a spot he normally puts someone in. It was empty and we had no idea it was an outfitter camp. But he sure got mad about it. Ever since then they have been putting someone in that particular spot. We just go a little deeper if they are there.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Got it. That's what I thought. This outfitter got mad because we camped in a spot he normally puts someone in. It was empty and we had no idea it was an outfitter camp. But he sure got mad about it. Ever since then they have been putting someone in that particular spot. We just go a little deeper if they are there.

That’s a tough situation as an outfitter. Legally we cannot tell a person to leave, our permitted spot. But we also can’t go set up a mile down the trail. Usually if this happens I speak to the guys there see how long they are Gonna be there, if I won’t be putting clients in that time, I drop my stuff out of the way and ask them to just watch it and I’ll set it up when they leave. Tell them good luck and leave. If I’m putting clients In I let them know when I’m bringing them in and how many. Then I let my clients know there’s people there and give them the option to go or move somewhere else. Haven’t had it happen yet though l. Please don’t think I’m saying our as if we own it, but let’s say you hike in to the spot and pound nails in a tree we don’t see. If the forest service comes in to check our spot, and find them we get fined for it. Whether we used it that year or not, my camp locations when I show up in the fall to set camps I take pictures of anything that I can get fined for them send them to the forest service. I also do the same with clients in the camp. If they do stuff they will get me fined I charge them for the fines. We also lose points and if you lose so many points you lose ur permits. So if someone trashed our campsite over the summer we can get fined for it if we don’t have proof it was done before we set up.


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[Swede]

BigAntlerGetter is right. I would not advise asking someone you suspect of running an illegal operation about their permit. If they are illegal, they are not going to admit it, and will say their permit is on file at the office or something anyway. I thought all legal outfitters using federal land had both a State license and a F.S. permit.

When I worked for the F.S. we had illegal outfitters fairly often on one District. My advise is never book with or hire them under any circumstance. Would you really expect they would cheat and lie on the other parts of their operation and treat you fairly? They are crooks. They will likely not be back next season, but could be, and could try somewhere else. Often they access the National Forest through private land.

Another common stunt is for people to hang; "Private Property -- No Trespassing" signs up. Of coarse the adjacent landowner has no idea how they got there. "Road Closed" signs can magically disappear and then reappear at another road entrance.

 

[sndmn11]

The COA book/website is probably not up to date, and in reality doesn't matter for your issue. Go by what the USFS website says and if you still have doubts, just call and have them look into it.