Statins

I don't trust that high "bad" cholesterol means I need a statin. They also tried telling us for years that meat and fat causes heart disease and it's pretty obvious that it's caused by carbs. My weight is good. My bp is good. I'll take my chances.
 
Have you had a coronary calcium score lately?

High cholesterol isn't always bad, and statins aren't always good. I'm not a doctor, just a guy with a lot of experience and opinions, but reluctant to unpack them here.


(My coronary calcium score is -0-. Try a keto diet. It likely saved my life).
Chris....my HRT Dr who I mentioned above....recommended I get one...to Ease the Mind. My overall Cholesterol is about 287. My last lipid panel (which is an EXTENSIVE panel, particle size, levels, ratios etc) recommended the same Calcium scan.

Paid $225 our of pocket. My score is 11.

0-100 is Minimal "chance" of coronary issue. 100-400? maybe is Medium. Over 400? is you have some issues.

Of the 5 Arteries only one "The Widow Maker" had any plaque. And again...it's an 11.

It's the summary and totality of many things re: Cholesterol Score
 
I'm not a Dr. but I've seen enough research on them to know that they aren't really effective. If memory serves, they're estimated to extend your current longevity by minimal amounts. Your brain runs on cholesterol. There are also lots of other things you should look at before jumping into "health" meds. Have they done arterial plaque analysis? Loosing weight and being active is the first place to start
 
Have you had a coronary calcium score lately?

High cholesterol isn't always bad, and statins aren't always good. I'm not a doctor, just a guy with a lot of experience and opinions, but reluctant to unpack them here.


(My coronary calcium score is -0-. Try a keto diet. It likely saved my life).

This
 
THEY TRIED TO GET ME!

I did my annual blood panel and had an LDL of 124, barely above the "ideal" number. The young female PA told me her ASCVD calculator told her I needed to get on Statins. **** YOU! Actually I said "Absolutely not!"

So how did she come to this conclusion? I'm 63 years old. Plug in my age, the LDL of 124, and the "office" blood pressure of 130/80 and you get a statin recommendation...no questions asked.

But my real blood pressure, which I take daily, averages 116/70 with resting HR of about 56. I ride dirt bikes, surf, and have an athletic job that requires me lifting 50 pound bags from ground level to over my head. I knew her calculator was bullshit.

WHAT TO DO?

1. Absolutely INSIST on getting a rested manual blood pressure reading put into your chart. Don't accept the little machine reading they give you when you first walk in the door. That alone dropped me out of the calculator statin zone.

2. No matter what the calculator says, get a Coronary Artery Calcium CT scan (CAC test). It's $125-$250 and takes about three minutes out patient at any imaging center. My reading was a 3, out of 400! Essentially it was equal to a zero plaque reading. This reading alone negates whatever the blunt force ASCVD calculator says.

I wonder about a few things. First, this PA is a young lady. To her, I'm probably a post middle-age dude who can't possibly have a sex life. But she's wrong. My natural testosterone is about 500. Sexual performance and libido are critical to my quality of life, and to my wife's. I'm guessing her view of me made it easy to ignore the known sexual side effects of statins on some people. Next, why would she not even consider the ratios of good to total cholesterol (which were fantastic a 3.3)? Why would she not immediately recommend a CAC scan, etc.? Lack of time? Lack of concern? Lack of experience. Probably all of the above. She seemed to be unaware of the potential devastating side effects of statins that can make you unable to do the things that prevent you from needing statins in the first place.

So, NEVER let them put you on statins without first getting a CAC!!! Use a valid blood pressure test. And disregard tests based solely on age. That's my opinion. :-)
 
CACs (coronary artery calcium score) are not validated to show low risk. You can use a MESA score risk calculator if you have a CAC score. But the use of a CAC in isolation is money wasting voodoo.

The so called "statin paradox" which has been brought up several times in this thread is only a paradox of a few educated people still doing bad science.

One of the studies that allegedly shows higher cholesterol is better was based on asking the patient if they had high cholesterol or took a statin. Yes to either resulted in being considered in the high cholesterol group, which had better long term outcomes. Think about that for a second, people who took a statin were all in the group with better outcomes. The only way I can conceive of such a poor study design is intentionally designing it to result in the desired wording. Pitting that against RCTs is like trying to cut with the spine of a knife.

The main people pushing the anti-statin narrative and designing studies that should embarrass a freshman in college make money selling unproven supplements and books.

Oh well, people literally argue with me that the heart is a vortex and doesn't pump blood, and you can find pseudo science papers to support that as well. So, I'm not really surprised and those with strong feelings get to live their life as they please.
 
CACs (coronary artery calcium score) are not validated to show low risk. You can use a MESA score risk calculator if you have a CAC score. But the use of a CAC in isolation is money wasting voodoo.

The so called "statin paradox" which has been brought up several times in this thread is only a paradox of a few educated people still doing bad science.

One of the studies that allegedly shows higher cholesterol is better was based on asking the patient if they had high cholesterol or took a statin. Yes to either resulted in being considered in the high cholesterol group, which had better long term outcomes. Think about that for a second, people who took a statin were all in the group with better outcomes. The only way I can conceive of such a poor study design is intentionally designing it to result in the desired wording. Pitting that against RCTs is like trying to cut with the spine of a knife.

The main people pushing the anti-statin narrative and designing studies that should embarrass a freshman in college make money selling unproven supplements and books.

Oh well, people literally argue with me that the heart is a vortex and doesn't pump blood, and you can find pseudo science papers to support that as well. So, I'm not really surprised and those with strong feelings get to live their life as they please.

A zero or near zero CAC is all almost ANYONE needs to show low risk. Even in isolation, a coronary artery calcium (CAC) score is a validated, independent predictor of both high and low cardiovascular risk. It's literally that strong. Dozens of studies show this. Of course other factors should be taken into account (like I said, I did a full blood panel, non-smoker, no diabetes, etc.). But the "power of zero" for a CAC tells you all you need to know to, at the very least, insist on the doc doing a good bit more work before recommending a statin, or any meds.
 
A zero or near zero CAC is all almost ANYONE needs to show low risk. Even in isolation, a coronary artery calcium (CAC) score is a validated, independent predictor of both high and low cardiovascular risk. It's literally that strong. Dozens of studies show this. Of course other factors should be taken into account (like I said, I did a full blood panel, non-smoker, no diabetes, etc.). But the "power of zero" for a CAC tells you all you need to know to, at the very least, insist on the doc doing a good bit more work before recommending a statin, or any meds.
About half right.
 
Don't make me post the studies! :cool:

And I don't have any books to sell. I just don't takemedicines for no reason, no matter what the side effect profile is.
That’s a good idea. Always know why you are taking something.

The fact insurance companies don’t pay for the test is one indicator that the data isn’t “great” as a predictor.
 
That’s a good idea. Always know why you are taking something.

The fact insurance companies don’t pay for the test is one indicator that the data isn’t “great” as a predictor.

Okay, you made me do it! The fact that it IS a proven great predictor is one indicator that whether or not insurance pays for a procedure says nothing about whether it works. Thank you AI for making this easy...

Below is a concise, evidence-based summary of the five landmark human studies (and a few key meta-analyses) that together established CAC as the most powerful non-invasive predictor of cardiac risk ever validated.

🧠 1️⃣ MESA (Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis)

Reference: Budoff MJ et al., JACC 2018;72:434-447.
Design: 6,814 asymptomatic adults, ages 45–84, followed >15 years across 4 ethnic groups.
Findings:
  • CAC was the strongest predictor of future coronary events, outperforming age, cholesterol, BP, and smoking combined.
  • 10-yr event rate:
    • CAC = 0 → 0.4–0.8 %
    • CAC 1–100 → 3 %
    • CAC 101–300 → 13 %
    • CAC > 300 → >20 %
  • Every doubling of CAC raised event risk ≈ 20–25 %.
    Conclusion: CAC = 0 = “power of zero”; CAC > 100 = high-risk even if LDL and BP normal.

🩺 2️⃣ Heinz Nixdorf Recall Study (Germany)

Reference: Erbel R et al., Eur Heart J 2020;41:3504-3512.
Design: 4,814 adults, median follow-up 13 yrs.
Findings:
  • Event-free survival:
    • CAC = 0 → 99 % survival at 10 yrs.
    • CAC > 400 → event rate > 25 %.
  • CAC outperformed Framingham risk factors and all serum biomarkers.
    Conclusion: CAC gives quantitative, independent risk discrimination across all ages and sexes.

💡 3️⃣ St. Francis Heart Study (USA)

Reference: Arad Y et al., Circulation 2005;111:402–409.
Design: 4,903 asymptomatic adults followed 4 yrs.
Findings:
  • Subjects in the top CAC quartile (>100) had a 10-fold increase in cardiac events vs CAC = 0.
  • CAC predicted events independently of LDL, HDL, and CRP.
    Conclusion:
    CAC directly measures disease burden — not just risk factors.

🫀 4️⃣ BioImage Study (USA)

Reference: Baber U et al., JACC Imaging 2016;9:1621-1633.
Design: 5,808 adults ≥ 55 yrs, 3-yr follow-up with carotid ultrasound, biomarkers, and CAC CT.
Findings:
  • CAC was the single best predictor of events (AUC 0.79 vs 0.68 for carotid plaque).
  • CAC = 0 subjects had annual event rate 0.1 % despite high risk-factor burden.
    Conclusion: Imaging calcium beats all other non-invasive screening methods.

📈 5️⃣ CARDIA (Coronary Artery Risk Development in Young Adults)

Reference: Carr JJ et al., JAMA Cardiol 2017;2:391-399.
Design: 3,043 participants first scanned at mean age 40, followed >12 yrs.
Findings:
  • Even small CAC > 0 in midlife predicted a 5- to 10-fold higher risk of events by age 50.
  • Early CAC = “premature atherosclerosis” marker.
    Conclusion: CAC predicts future disease decades before symptoms.

📚 6️⃣ Key Meta-Analyses

StudyPopulationKey result
Pletcher et al., Arch Intern Med 200427 000+ peopleAdding CAC to Framingham risk doubled C-statistic; net reclassification +25 %.
Polonsky et al., NEJM 20106 700 MESACAC improved risk discrimination far more than CRP, carotid IMT, or family history.
Yeboah et al., Eur Heart J 2012MESA subsetCAC was the only biomarker (of 30 tested) with significant independent predictive value.

🧾 Overall Proof Summary

Evidence typeKey outcomeQuantitative strength
>15 prospective cohortsCAC predicts coronary events independent of all risk factorsHR ≈ 2.3 per SD; HR ≈ 0.1 for CAC = 0
AUC / C-statistic improvement+0.10–0.20 over Framingham modelsHighest of any imaging or lab marker
Reclassification benefit (NRI)25–35 % of patients moved correctly between risk tiersProven clinical utility
Validation for low risk (CAC = 0)10-yr event rate < 1 % in all major studies“Power of zero” established

✅ Clinical Consensus

  • ACC/AHA 2018, ESC 2021, SCCT 2022, and USPSTF 2022 all recognize CAC scoring as the most accurate non-invasive method to refine ASCVD risk.
  • CAC = 0 → “no statin, reassess in 5 yrs” (except smokers, diabetics, or LDL ≥ 190).
  • CAC > 100 → “statin strongly recommended.”

🩺 Bottom line

Coronary Artery Calcium scoring is conclusively proven — by multiple large, long-term, multi-ethnic, peer-reviewed studies — to be the most powerful single predictor of both high and low coronary risk in asymptomatic adults.
No other blood test or imaging modality offers greater validated prognostic accuracy.
 
Okay, you made me do it! Thank you AI for making this easy...

Below is a concise, evidence-based summary of the five landmark human studies (and a few key meta-analyses) that together established CAC as the most powerful non-invasive predictor of cardiac risk ever validated.

🧠 1️⃣ MESA (Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis)

Reference: Budoff MJ et al., JACC 2018;72:434-447.
Design: 6,814 asymptomatic adults, ages 45–84, followed >15 years across 4 ethnic groups.
Findings:
  • CAC was the strongest predictor of future coronary events, outperforming age, cholesterol, BP, and smoking combined.
  • 10-yr event rate:
    • CAC = 0 → 0.4–0.8 %
    • CAC 1–100 → 3 %
    • CAC 101–300 → 13 %
    • CAC > 300 → >20 %
  • Every doubling of CAC raised event risk ≈ 20–25 %.
    Conclusion: CAC = 0 = “power of zero”; CAC > 100 = high-risk even if LDL and BP normal.

🩺 2️⃣ Heinz Nixdorf Recall Study (Germany)

Reference: Erbel R et al., Eur Heart J 2020;41:3504-3512.
Design: 4,814 adults, median follow-up 13 yrs.
Findings:
  • Event-free survival:
    • CAC = 0 → 99 % survival at 10 yrs.
    • CAC > 400 → event rate > 25 %.
  • CAC outperformed Framingham risk factors and all serum biomarkers.
    Conclusion: CAC gives quantitative, independent risk discrimination across all ages and sexes.

💡 3️⃣ St. Francis Heart Study (USA)

Reference: Arad Y et al., Circulation 2005;111:402–409.
Design: 4,903 asymptomatic adults followed 4 yrs.
Findings:
  • Subjects in the top CAC quartile (>100) had a 10-fold increase in cardiac events vs CAC = 0.
  • CAC predicted events independently of LDL, HDL, and CRP.
    Conclusion:
    CAC directly measures disease burden — not just risk factors.

🫀 4️⃣ BioImage Study (USA)

Reference: Baber U et al., JACC Imaging 2016;9:1621-1633.
Design: 5,808 adults ≥ 55 yrs, 3-yr follow-up with carotid ultrasound, biomarkers, and CAC CT.
Findings:
  • CAC was the single best predictor of events (AUC 0.79 vs 0.68 for carotid plaque).
  • CAC = 0 subjects had annual event rate 0.1 % despite high risk-factor burden.
    Conclusion: Imaging calcium beats all other non-invasive screening methods.

📈 5️⃣ CARDIA (Coronary Artery Risk Development in Young Adults)

Reference: Carr JJ et al., JAMA Cardiol 2017;2:391-399.
Design: 3,043 participants first scanned at mean age 40, followed >12 yrs.
Findings:
  • Even small CAC > 0 in midlife predicted a 5- to 10-fold higher risk of events by age 50.
  • Early CAC = “premature atherosclerosis” marker.
    Conclusion: CAC predicts future disease decades before symptoms.

📚 6️⃣ Key Meta-Analyses

StudyPopulationKey result
Pletcher et al., Arch Intern Med 200427 000+ peopleAdding CAC to Framingham risk doubled C-statistic; net reclassification +25 %.
Polonsky et al., NEJM 20106 700 MESACAC improved risk discrimination far more than CRP, carotid IMT, or family history.
Yeboah et al., Eur Heart J 2012MESA subsetCAC was the only biomarker (of 30 tested) with significant independent predictive value.

🧾 Overall Proof Summary

Evidence typeKey outcomeQuantitative strength
>15 prospective cohortsCAC predicts coronary events independent of all risk factorsHR ≈ 2.3 per SD; HR ≈ 0.1 for CAC = 0
AUC / C-statistic improvement+0.10–0.20 over Framingham modelsHighest of any imaging or lab marker
Reclassification benefit (NRI)25–35 % of patients moved correctly between risk tiersProven clinical utility
Validation for low risk (CAC = 0)10-yr event rate < 1 % in all major studies“Power of zero” established

✅ Clinical Consensus

  • ACC/AHA 2018, ESC 2021, SCCT 2022, and USPSTF 2022 all recognize CAC scoring as the most accurate non-invasive method to refine ASCVD risk.
  • CAC = 0 → “no statin, reassess in 5 yrs” (except smokers, diabetics, or LDL ≥ 190).
  • CAC > 100 → “statin strongly recommended.”

🩺 Bottom line

So the summary hit it. If you are zero (or close) your risk is low. If you are 300 (or close) you are at really high risk. So that takes care of about 25% of the people that take the test.

What about the 75% of people that fall in the middle? The data is all over the place.

That doesn’t even take into account non calcified vascular disease that doesn’t show up on CAC.
 
Saw my DR last week, said I read on RS that statins were bad for me. He laughed, said statins were one of the best meds ever created and those guys on RS are idiots, keep taking them.

LDL of 40
HDL 37
Total non hdl 50
 
Check an LP(a) level on them. This is commonly very elevated in patients with low to normal LDLs and early MIs.
^^ this is good advice for a lot of people, honestly. I just had mine come back and I’m 260 nmol/L, so top 95% of the population.

Despite having a healthy LDL and no other cardiac risk factors, I’m now on a preventive statin.

I have spent my career in healthcare, as a professor, and in drug development for biopharma. And now I’m a patient, too. Overwhelmingly, statins are safe and have saved so many lives.

Please do not listen to quack physicians and podcasters. They do not care about you.
 
There are undoubtedly many medications prescribed which have uncertain risk benefit profiles. Statins are not one. They are perhaps the best studied medication in the world. Their benefits are unrefutable (100,000s of patients followed for years in randomized trials; tens of millions over decades of observational research). They unequivocally lower the risk of heart attack, stroke, and death. Their side effects are minimal and greatly outweighed by their benefits. They are cheap ($5/mo) and convenient (one pill once per day).

If you an LDL > 190 or have a history of heart attack, stroke, or other atherosclerotic disease you should be on high intensity (atorva 40 or 80mg; rosuva 20 or 40mg).

If you have diabetes you should be on either medium (minimum - atorva 10 or 20mg; rosuva 5 or 10mg) or high (pending other risk factors) intensity statin.

If your 10 year risk score is > 7.5% you should be on a at least moderate intensity statin. If between 5-7.5% you should consider other factors (family history, LPa, coronary calcium) to guide choice.

The diatribes of statin vs lifestyle is bogus. We all need to work on lifestyle. Many also should be on statins. They aren’t mutually exclusive. They save lives and could save yours.

Credentials - Internal Medicine MD at Johns Hopkins


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
A zero or near zero CAC is all almost ANYONE needs to show low risk. Even in isolation, a coronary artery calcium (CAC) score is a validated, independent predictor of both high and low cardiovascular risk. It's literally that strong. Dozens of studies show this. Of course other factors should be taken into account (like I said, I did a full blood panel, non-smoker, no diabetes, etc.). But the "power of zero" for a CAC tells you all you need to know to, at the very least, insist on the doc doing a good bit more work before recommending a statin, or any meds.
First, I'll acknowledge my very poor initial wording.

A CAC of 0 in intermediate risk individuals makes a strong argument for downgrading risk. A CAC over 100 makes a strong argument for starting a statin.

CAC should not be obtained in low risk individuals. Some low risk populations will have an elevated CAC, but are still low risk. Endurance athletes are an example.

High risk individuals are still high risk, regards of CAC. I have seen CACs ordered by other providers on patients with histories of multiple heart attacks and stints and/or CABG that come back as 0. Are you really telling me the CAC out weighs that history.

A CAC in isolation is not validated as an assessment of risk. Even the MESA score (which you cite the trial for) doesn't take it in isolation and will recommend a statin with a CAC of 0 in some case's. It is open source, so you can play with it for yourself.
 
There are undoubtedly many medications prescribed which have uncertain risk benefit profiles. Statins are not one. They are perhaps the best studied medication in the world. Their benefits are unrefutable (100,000s of patients followed for years in randomized trials; tens of millions over decades of observational research). They unequivocally lower the risk of heart attack, stroke, and death. Their side effects are minimal and greatly outweighed by their benefits. They are cheap ($5/mo) and convenient (one pill once per day).

If you an LDL > 190 or have a history of heart attack, stroke, or other atherosclerotic disease you should be on high intensity (atorva 40 or 80mg; rosuva 20 or 40mg).

If you have diabetes you should be on either medium (minimum - atorva 10 or 20mg; rosuva 5 or 10mg) or high (pending other risk factors) intensity statin.

If your 10 year risk score is > 7.5% you should be on a at least moderate intensity statin. If between 5-7.5% you should consider other factors (family history, LPa, coronary calcium) to guide choice.

The diatribes of statin vs lifestyle is bogus. We all need to work on lifestyle. Many also should be on statins. They aren’t mutually exclusive. They save lives and could save yours.

Credentials - Internal Medicine MD at Johns Hopkins


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You, of all people, should know better than to recommend statins based on a 1990s calculator that was developed before CAC imaging even existed without first checking CAC. It absolutely negates your stated indication for a simple ASCVD score of >7.5%. Even at 10%, the recemmendstion from the 2018 ACC/AHA Cholesterol Guideline (Section 7.4.2.1) specifically says:

“If the CAC score is zero, it is reasonable to withhold or delay statin therapy, except in cigarette smokers, those with diabetes mellitus, or those with a strong family history of premature ASCVD.”
 
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