Sorry for the rant, but does anyone else feel this way?

[robby denning]

Unfortunately, it's the easiest way for a young company to grow. Find a couple of people on SM to pimp your product.

@robby denning and I talk about this all the time. In our Media Kit, it states "Said company is buying an Ad, not a review." We never tell our writers what to say good or bad. We do make sure the article is factual. We ask writers to have pros and cons, and I much prefer a VS article with a winner. Companies don't like that.

It’s actually in our sponsor agreement “sponsorship does not guarantee favorable reviews”.

And we do have a “review-only” listed in our sponsor packet for all the requests we get to review product but we’ve never sold one yet. They seem lose interest when I tell them the writers are autonomous and decide what they’re going to write.

Part of the reason most of my reviews are favorable is because I won’t waste time testing crappy gear or gear I don’t personally have interest in.

I turned away a company last fall that wanted me to test a rangefinder that seemed
like it was a piece of crap. It’s happened other times too.

Many of our staff members approach me to test gear they’re personally interested in via their research as often as I ask them to test sponsor gear.

And you’ll see member review opportunities on here occasionally. Anyone can ask those guys if we’ve told them what to write.

Sure we’re biased towards sponsors but we tell the truth about our experiences, good and bad. My picture of the ripped Obsidians in Big Box of First Lite, and busted ramrod guide in Cooper ML test come to mind.



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[sndmn11]

Shoot, a good social media game can be darned near all a company needs, it might have been the difference in winning a presidency. The hunting industry is a relatively small market to boot, but with those established companies having very loyal followings, it is terribly difficult to break into. A new company would be silly to turn away an opportunity to sell something to someone, and also land that person to help sell more. A salesman that pays the company? Yes please.
There ends up being a leveling out over time where people drop off, become disinterested, or find the next product or next deal. I personally think the "it's on sale" mentality has a big part of it as I know a handful of people who will happily buy a brand excessively at a certain percentage off of MSRP, when they could buy it for less from most stores because that manufacturer has no MAP. Most people want to feel validated, or special, or important, so the tag of pro staff can be a good hook. I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if there are some small companies out there that have a business plan that lays out an inflated regular price, with the goal of a very high percentage of its sales to "pro-staff" at a discount.
I could go on and on for several paragraphs about this from an insider's perspective, but I will leave it very simply in saying that the companies that are confident in their products (new or old) don't need to give their customer's titles, or stipulate review terms.

 

[Rob5589]

Any company that expects a positive review isn't looking for the review, they want an endorsement. I have found most high end gear sells itself. But I also don't sell short new companies with products that appear to be of quality design and build. Everyone starts somewhere.

 

[ljalberta]

Welcome to the place where the free market meets freedom of speech. He has every right to give pack advice just as much as any other person out there. This is no different than almost any other product or company out there that has talented and marketable (or neither of those qualities) spokes-people who advocate for them. As someone else said - the reviewer and who a company chooses to sponsor speaks loudly to the company themselves.

Now I'm gonna go read that Zeiss Harpia review that I missed.

 

[Ndstevens]

OP, Can we get the company name in a PM if we wanna be a "pro staff" for them? jk man. I get what your saying and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth but it's just the harsh reality of alot of companies marketing and driving sales. Right or wrong, it will never change

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[cmahoney]

OP, Can we get the company name in a PM if we wanna be a "pro staff" for them? jk man. I get what your saying and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth but it's just the harsh reality of alot of companies marketing and driving sales. Right or wrong, it will never change

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Ya, I’ll wear a flat bill for a free pack!


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[RCB]

Which is exactly why OP should name them. A company can associate with whomever they want, but the flip side to that is consumers can choose not to buy products from companies that employ insta-famous posers if they want to.

Sure. OP can say whatever he wants.

My thought: starting a new company is hard (I'm sure some of members here have direct experience). In a competitive market where you don't have some game changing innovation that allows you to dominate the market (and no one in the backpacking game does!), marketing is a big part of the game. You might have noticed that all of the "big 3/4/5" backpacking companies have a flashy instagram account. As do pretty much clothing companies, shoe makers, rifle builders, etc etc. You might disagree, but IMO part of what they are selling you is an image and a lifestyle.

So am I all that bothered that this budding company aligned itself with some guy whom the OP happens to deem unworthy of having a respectable opinion? Do I conclude that the company is "just looking for guys with a decent social media following to sling their packs" because of *one* example? No. Maybe so, but I'm not gonna take his word for it. If OP shares the company with us, I think it would be foolish to write them off forever. As I said, overreacting.

 

[RaggedHunter]

First off just wanted to say thank you all for your input, this is the kind of discussion I was hoping to generate. I think that a lot can be taken away from looking at controversial things from different perspectives.

Second off, the reason I did not name the company was for fear of taking away from this type of conversation and turning it into an "x company" bash thread. I understand peoples curiosity as to the company name and I have no problem sharing that info, but would prefer to do it through PM to hopefully avoid gumming up the thread.

I agree with a lot of things stated, I think that a new company would be dumb not to utilize social media for marketing, it is a very powerful tool and I see no problem with that, any company that wants to be competitive would do the same. I also understand the thought of getting the pack in someones hands that is going to get some pictures with some animals next to it, I see those things as smart marketing tactics. I could understand picking someone with a lot of followers to promote your stuff, and get it in front of a lot of people, but in this particular case were talking about a guy with 500-600 followers.. not what I would call someone with a big reach. So I do not think that in this case that this was the company's intention in this particular case.

More than anything, I do not think that a guy should be giving pack reviews, advice on packs, and telling everyone how great this pack is when he has no prior or relatable experience to compare it to.

So in my mind I believe that there are 2 possibilities:
1: The company is just looking for guys who will say whatever the company feeds them to potential customers to sell their packs.

2: The person was dishonest about his "resume" and claimed to be much more knowledgeable about packs, backpacking, packing game out etc.

For me it comes down to this.
If someone contacts a company with questions regarding their product, they are trusting that the person giving me the information on that product has a higher understanding of that product than they do.
If someone ask a pro staffer what pack would be best for let's say a solo 3-5 day backpack hunt.. and the pro staffer tells them that "use this pack" and lists a handful of reasons why, but when in all actuality this pro staffer has never once gone on a single over night backpack hunt, let alone a 3-5 day solo hunt and packed an animal out using any pack let alone the one he is trying to sell.. It is flat out dishonest.

That is where my main frustration lies in this particular scenario. I get annoyed with all of the gear fan boys on social media, but I get why companies go for that, its free advertising. My problem lies with the illegitimate dishonest aspect of it.

RCB, I do not believe that I am overreacting. I did not name the company and start a "X company" bash thread talking out of line and trying to hurt a company, I believe that would be considered overreacting. I intentionally left the name out for that reason so that we could have a legit conversation and hear different peoples perspectives on the matter.

5Milesback, pertaining to your question, I do not know what made him decide to buy a new pack. I guess he wanted one (plenty of guys who drive bi diesel trucks and never pull anything), there's nothing wrong with wanting new gear, I don't think your style of hunting has to fit a certain mold to be able to purchase a certain pack. However I do thing you should have some experience and knowledge about a subject before giving reviews on it and pimping it out.

 

[deerkiller]

Rokslide is not your everyday "vetting platform" though, and that's a very good thing - 1 opinion from a "pro staffer" vs. 10+ opinions with pro/con statements added, some from folks who spent their money on the product is a very valuable thing, not something you normally find on the internet

 

[Ratbeetle]

Sure. OP can say whatever he wants.

My thought: starting a new company is hard (I'm sure some of members here have direct experience). In a competitive market where you don't have some game changing innovation that allows you to dominate the market (and no one in the backpacking game does!), marketing is a big part of the game. You might have noticed that all of the "big 3/4/5" backpacking companies have a flashy instagram account. As do pretty much clothing companies, shoe makers, rifle builders, etc etc. You might disagree, but IMO part of what they are selling you is an image and a lifestyle.

So am I all that bothered that this budding company aligned itself with some guy whom the OP happens to deem unworthy of having a respectable opinion? Do I conclude that the company is "just looking for guys with a decent social media following to sling their packs" because of *one* example? No. Maybe so, but I'm not gonna take his word for it. If OP shares the company with us, I think it would be foolish to write them off forever. As I said, overreacting.

I never said the company should be written off forever. But it would be nice to know what company it is so guys that might be considering their gear can take the "prostaff" opinions with a grain of salt.

If the gear is solid, it will stand on its own merits.

 

[sndmn11]

More than anything, I do not think that a guy should be giving pack reviews, advice on packs, and telling everyone how great this pack is when he has no prior or relatable experience to compare it to.

This is not argumentative, but a different perspective.

Maybe it is a great pack? I don't think there is an inkling of anything wrong with any of those things if it is genuine. A person doesn't need to be an expert in ALL brands in order to be familiar with their one brand. I don't know much about Sitka, SKRE, Kryptek, Prois clothing, but that doesn't mean I am clueless about the First Lite clothing I wear most every day.

The most valuable advocate for a company is someone that can answer middle of the road questions about it, that may not be clear from the company or may be somewhat quirky. We see it all the time on here when someone asks a question like, "Hey can someone take a picture of how the they are routing this pocket attachment on this pack?"....and then a bunch of people respond. So there is nothing wrong with someone sharing their experiences, and it is somewhat of an unwritten rule that a person who buys as pro-staff/industry/professional/partner/whatever is willing to do so good or bad. If a person is blowing smoke about something, either the manufacturer will figure it out quickly or potential customers will. The company doesn't win in that situation.

 

[RaggedHunter]

This is not argumentative, but a different perspective.

Maybe it is a great pack? I don't think there is an inkling of anything wrong with any of those things if it is genuine. A person doesn't need to be an expert in ALL brands in order to be familiar with their one brand. I don't know much about Sitka, SKRE, Kryptek, Prois clothing, but that doesn't mean I am clueless about the First Lite clothing I wear most every day.

The most valuable advocate for a company is someone that can answer middle of the road questions about it, that may not be clear from the company or may be somewhat quirky. We see it all the time on here when someone asks a question like, "Hey can someone take a picture of how the they are routing this pocket attachment on this pack?"....and then a bunch of people respond. So there is nothing wrong with someone sharing their experiences, and it is somewhat of an unwritten rule that a person who buys as pro-staff/industry/professional/partner/whatever is willing to do so good or bad. If a person is blowing smoke about something, either the manufacturer will figure it out quickly or potential customers will. The company doesn't win in that situation.

I get where you're going, I am on board with a lot of what you're saying. Not every person on a pro staff needs to be an Aron Snyder or a Steve Speck to answer the more general customer questions regarding the gear.. I think like you said there's nothing wrong with someone sharing their experiences, I undoubtedly agree with that, hell that's part what makes this forum great, average guys who spend their money on gear and give their feedback on it.

But when someone has had a pack for less than a week before he starts giving advice on things that he has absolutely no experience with, they are lacking the "experiences" part of that equation. That is the part that I struggle with the most.

I also agree that if a person or company is blowing smoke, that people catch on fairly quick. I think that this scenario is a prime example of that.

 

[Browninglover1]

I wrote a review a few years ago for a hunting website about a Trijicon spotter. I essentially said that I would not recommend the product given that it was was handily outperformed by products costing less money. The website owner contacted me and told me they would not be publishing the article but that they had forwarded it on to the manufacturer as feedback. He said they believed in the philosophy of only publishing reviews of good performing products so that readers didn't waste their time reading about things that would not be recommended. As I've watched the industry, I've seen the exact same philosophy from the majority of sites. So if you can't find published reviews of a product you're interested in, there's a good chance it's sub par and nobody wants to tell you that in print.

When you find a place that isn't afraid to give an honest review (like Rokslide) it is very refreshing. Robby brought up the review of the Harpia 95mm spotter and I was actually very pleased that they posted it. Regardless of whether Zeiss is a site sponsor, they published the truth, and now all of us have that information to make an informed decision. It increases my trust in Matt (excellent optics reviewer) and lets me know that he isn't afraid to tell it how it is.

 

[bridgermgmt]

1. Credibility is hard to get and easy to loose.
2. If your not jealous than I’d forget about it. But use it as a reason to be skeptical when you get told something is great.
3. Sporting companies do this with little kids to get the addicted. This is the retail model since forever. Can’t hate them for doing what everyone else does. I don’t think ANYONE can name a single brand that didn’t buy legitimacy at some level. What matters is the level of truth in the claim rather than who claims it.
4. You should be happy that this got under your skin. It means your not a pawn and you think for yourself. Good job. That’s becoming a rare thing.

 

[sndmn11]

But when someone has had a pack for less than a week before he starts giving advice on things that he has absolutely no experience with, they are lacking the "experiences" part of that equation. That is the part that I struggle with the most.

I also agree that if a person or company is blowing smoke, that people catch on fairly quick. I think that this scenario is a prime example of that.

The first part of what I quoted in my opinion is where the reader needs to differentiate between advice and experiences. I can tell you that I am really happy with my new Rockies hat and why, or I can tell you that my new Rockies hat is the best and you should get one too. The difference there is the latter is phrased as a statement of fact, the former an opinion and perspective. Which do you think would come across better?

The second part of what I quoted relates to what I just wrote. Obviously I haven't read what your friend has written but if he has the product in hand and is just sharing his experiences, that is pretty much the point of it all. If he is stretching the truth or fabricating things to land on "this is the best", the hunting community is small enough that those things get weeded out super quick.

 

[RCB]

If the gear is solid, it will stand on its own merits.

We agree, then. I don't have any problem with OP sharing the company name. I just wanted to temper the tendency for forum groupthink but urging folks not to jump to conclusions. I'd hate to see the forum collectively decide that some new company is untrustworthy because of this one story. I'm sure that won't happen.

Ultimately, this is what happened: A rokslide member thinks that a new backpack maker made a bad decision about one of their "prostaff" affiliations because said pro-staffer is supposedly not very knowledgable about backpacks. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[prm]

The minute someone is a “pro staff” or sponsored by a product, I no longer pay attention to what they have to say about that product. It’s human nature to be biased. Anyone attempting to make a living in the hunting/shooting world is not as likely to point out negatives to a product from a company which they receive a check. In a way I feel we as consumers miss out on an opportunity to learn when some individuals who have tremendous hunting experience, whether they be bloggers, podcasters or tv personalities, get sponsored. But that’s the business side of things and I can’t blame them. Though I laugh when they all say something to the effect that they are already believed in the product before getting sponsored.

 

[tdot]

I agree that the OP shouldn't list the company name. Nothing personal, but his opinion has set a negative tone that a new Company may or may not ever be able to overcome on this site. Rokslide has become a respected site, and the negative information here will probably be disseminated to other sites. Social media is scary fast at spreading negative information, and in this case there is a single person who is able to become Judge, Jury and Executioner for a product/company without the other side of the story.

I have been apart of other industries and I have started multiple companies. It is not easy. I have sponsored athletes who have won World Titles. They were douche bags... all of them. The real gems, the guys we loved to sponsor were local kids who had great attitudes, were friendly and could hold a conversation with others. They will do more for a brand on a local level then the most uber talented athlete ever could. Unfortunately when we see the name "Pro Staff" there is an assumption that they are top tier in their field, this isn't always the case, sometimes they are just friendly people. There are many companies/industries that have started to call these people "Brand Ambassadors" and I think this is a more fitting name. It causes less confusion and I personally think it is more honest to the customer.

 

[robby denning]

Rokslide is not your everyday "vetting platform" though, and that's a very good thing - 1 opinion from a "pro staffer" vs. 10+ opinions with pro/con statements added, some from folks who spent their money on the product is a very valuable thing, not something you normally find on the internet

Thanks for bringing that up. If everyone pays attention, we almost always have a discussion thread linked to any of our reviews, and often the discussion thread is up before the review. There are several reasons for this:
1) Gives our members a chance to share their experiences with same gear, even if it's contrary to the writer's experiences. I can't think of an instance where we've ever deleted a member's post from one of these threads unless he was just being a jerk.
2) Helps the writer anticipate what people want to know about a product. I've included member's experiences in some of my reviews. My Kryptek Vellus review comes to mind. Even though I found it very quiet, an eastern tree stand hunter chimed in and said it was loud in freezing temps in the near silent world of treestand hunting when the quarry will likely be within 20 yards, compared to western hunting with on the ground stalks and shots at 40+. Even though he didn't "agree" with me, I still put his comments directly in my review, as it was the truth.
3) To foster discussion we can all benefit from. I learned a long time ago that many of our members will have more experience with a certain product than I do, so I'm only helping more people by allowing those people to chime in. Often we publish reviews just to get the discussion going on a product, not because we're the experts on the product.

 

[Fatcamp]

Ya, I’ll wear a flat bill for a free pack!


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Well, if Aaron sends me a frame I'll wear a Kifaru hat on every hunt for the next ten years. Or until the hat wears out, whichever comes first.
Heck, I'll even buy the hat.