Some concerns about what a reputable gunsmith said about my rifle

[ssimo]

I brought my rifle for bedding to a reputate gunsmith here in my country (he is a top tier precision shooter, he won several international competitions with rifles made by his gunshop), he also produces some competition precision rifles and I can see he is a very nice guy, really passionate about his job.

I just had to get my rifle bedded into the new stock i bought but some other things popped up and i am not sure they are worth to be spent money for so i ask here

1) talley (maker of bases) said to limit the torque value for their 2 piece aluminum bases into the action to 25 in lbs. Bergara (maker of the rifle) said to torque base screws at 30 lbs so i decided to torque the bases at 30 lbs with some blue 243 loctite. The gunsmith said the bases can be torqued to 60 in lbs and, worst case scenario, he will break a screw head and he will replace it with a higher strenght one. He also suggested loctite is not necessary and said he never use it. I am a bit skeptical on this.

2) he noticed the bolt jumping when dry fired on my rifle and said he will have to take a little material off of a part of the bolt assembly because this could make every trigger pull different from the other.. again, i didn't understand and looked into it on the forum. I found out that some people say it is normal for a rem 700 clone action, someone said there could be a timing issue but almost everyone agreed that this jump is normal on an empty chamber. My smith didn't try to chamber anything and just said he will remove a little bit of material from a specific area and in 10 minutes this will be fixed.

He is a very well known gunsmith and i trust him more than i trust myself of course but i would like to understand better what my rifle could go through.

Worst case scenario i will ask him to just bed the action to the stock and after that i will try the rifle and see if It works well. Tomorrow i will also give a call to Bergara to understand what is their take on this bolt jump. My other b14 rifle does the same thing when dry fired with an empty chamber (and to a significantly less extent but also when dry fired with a fired case in the chamber) and it is a 0.3 MOA rifle with a couple factory loads so i wouldn't mess with it for sure.



Thanks!!

 

[hiker270]

If your rifle shoots .3 MOA why have anything changed?

 

[ssimo]

If your rifle shoots .3 MOA why have anything changed?

My other rifle shoots like this. This one shoots good, too. I didn't even tried this new one properly before putting the stock actually. Just a single range session to make sure it works well

 

[redneckbmxer24]

No loctite on scope bases and double the rating on base screws? LOL. Time to find a new gunsmith.

 

[ssimo]

No loctite on scope bases and double the rating on base screws? LOL. Time to find a new gunsmith.

Of course this is the same thing that goes through my mind when i hear these kind of things but he is a precision rifle manufacturer. Good precision rifles, winning european precision shooting (i am not gonna go into more details) championships regularly.

Anyway maybe it's better to just make him do the bedding and that's it. This is the only thing i really can't do and it can be very important for rifle accuracy

 

[gearguywb]

No loc-tite. Correctly torques down the bases and rings and you will be fine.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Of course this is the same thing that goes through my mind when i hear these kind of things but he is a precision rifle manufacturer. Good precision rifles, winning european precision shooting (i am not gonna go into more details) championships regularly.

Anyway maybe it's better to just make him do the bedding and that's it. This is the only thing i really can't do and it can be very important for rifle accuracy

If you think it’s not possible for someone to be a complete idiot while being in a higher position, just look at the US president.

I would not spend a dime with someone who gives feedback like that. I’m sure he’s not the only person that you can have bed your rifle.

 

[ssimo]

If you think it’s not possible for someone to be a complete idiot while being in a higher position, just look at the US president.

I would not spend a dime with someone who gives feedback like that. I’m sure he’s not the only person that you can have bed your rifle.

Oh trust me, i know very well doing what i do as a job

Anyway i wouldn't call this guy a idiot but often in the gun industry, where there are no scientific randomized trials to assess these relatively small concerns, people tend to do what they think is ok and, when someone is too full of himself, tends to disregard the common practice and do what he wants. For him these very high torque values worked out well apparently but he shoots crazy big calibers for his competitions with huge, very high quality receivers and screws. So that could be the reason. For a lightweight hunting rifle using small screws and the smallest receiver possible is important to cute weight and bulk for example. Maybe that's just why he says these things.

Anyway i think i will make the rifle bedded by this smith (he is the most expert on thwse kind of stock, which are pretty rare and have not been imported in my country in large numbers) and to the rest for myself and leave the bolt jumping happily for the rest of its life

 

[BRTreedogs]

Talley bases are known to break. But if they are already on there.

Far as the rest is concerned ask him to bed it, then go try the rifle, tell him you will return if any issues arise.

 

[LoggerDan]

No loc tite. I use that stuff on my chopper. Good Torx head’s don’t need it.

 

[ssimo]

Talley bases are known to break. But if they are already on there.

Far as the rest is concerned ask him to bed it, then go try the rifle, tell him you will return if any issues arise.

I have never heard any complaint on talley 2 piece bases.. they are just two small pieces of rail made of 7075 aluminum, I don't see many week points in that!

On the rest i agree 100%

 

[HandgunHTR]

If your base screws and action holes are properly degreased, there no need to put loctite on the screws. Proper torque is also necessary. I would go with 30 inch/pounds myself as the Talleys are aluminum.

As for the bolt jump on an empty chamber, he isn't wrong. It shouldn't move whether a round is chambered or not.

 

[BRTreedogs]

I have never heard any complaint on talley 2 piece bases.. they are just two small pieces of rail made of 7075 aluminum, I don't see many week points in that!

On the rest i agree 100%

Do some searching one here or Google about Talley breaking. I know what they are.

 

[TaperPin]

I brought my rifle for bedding to a reputate gunsmith here in my country (he is a top tier precision shooter, he won several international competitions with rifles made by his gunshop), he also produces some competition precision rifles and I can see he is a very nice guy, really passionate about his job.

I just had to get my rifle bedded into the new stock i bought but some other things popped up and i am not sure they are worth to be spent money for so i ask here

1) talley (maker of bases) said to limit the torque value for their 2 piece aluminum bases into the action to 25 in lbs. Bergara (maker of the rifle) said to torque base screws at 30 lbs so i decided to torque the bases at 30 lbs with some blue 243 loctite. The gunsmith said the bases can be torqued to 60 in lbs and, worst case scenario, he will break a screw head and he will replace it with a higher strenght one. He also suggested loctite is not necessary and said he never use it. I am a bit skeptical on this.

2) he noticed the bolt jumping when dry fired on my rifle and said he will have to take a little material off of a part of the bolt assembly because this could make every trigger pull different from the other.. again, i didn't understand and looked into it on the forum. I found out that some people say it is normal for a rem 700 clone action, someone said there could be a timing issue but almost everyone agreed that this jump is normal on an empty chamber. My smith didn't try to chamber anything and just said he will remove a little bit of material from a specific area and in 10 minutes this will be fixed.

He is a very well known gunsmith and i trust him more than i trust myself of course but i would like to understand better what my rifle could go through.

Worst case scenario i will ask him to just bed the action to the stock and after that i will try the rifle and see if It works well. Tomorrow i will also give a call to Bergara to understand what is their take on this bolt jump. My other b14 rifle does the same thing when dry fired with an empty chamber (and to a significantly less extent but also when dry fired with a fired case in the chamber) and it is a 0.3 MOA rifle with a couple factory loads so i wouldn't mess with it for sure.



Thanks!!

Time and time again in the nicely done scope tests on this forum the cautious factory recommended scope mount torque values have allowed scopes to slip - the same is true of overly cautious torque values for bases. The reason for these values to be on the light side is it prevents phone calls from angry customers - not enough torque doesn’t dent scopes, break screws or strip out marginal receiver threads.

With undamaged, properly formed receiver threads the maximum torque is dependent on the strength of the screw and the best screws cost significantly more to produce. For any manufacturer to make a few extra $ on every set of bases all they have to do is use cheap screws and recommend a low torque setting.

The bolt jumping happens with all bolt guns to some extent, but mass produced bolts are known for an issue that does affect accuracy. As the tigger is pulled and the firing pin begins to fall, the part that releases the firing pin snaps out of the way by the force of the firing pin spring and returns into position to catch the firing pin cocking piece as the action is cycled and recocked. If that part snaps out of the way and rebounds quick enough to slap the cocking piece before the primer strike then that isn‘t great. I’m guessing he puts a slight taper on the bottom of it. There’s probably a better explanation of this on the benchrest forums, but that’s the cliff notes version.

The guy seems knowledgeable to me - maybe he needs to better explain the reasoning behind the recommendations, but there is a fine line between enough information and saying so much a client’s head begins to spin and it becomes confusing.

edit: You are right to be careful and not allow someone to do whatever they like without fully understanding it. More than one well thought of gunsmith has made a habit of adding small extras - that’s like trying to sell a milkshake to everyone buying a hamburger.

There is a test to show if the cocking piece is being slapped, but it takes longer to test than to simply modify the part.

 

[JohnJohnson]

apparently but he shoots crazy big calibers for his competitions with huge, very high quality receivers and screws.

What competitions is he shooting in with crazy big calibers? Is he an ELR shooter or something?

 

[ssimo]

Do some searching one here or Google about Talley breaking. I know what they are.

Man it'a a single flat piece of aluminum 7075 of maybe 2 inches of lenght , how can it break?

 

[BRTreedogs]

Man it'a a single flat piece of aluminum 7075 of maybe 2 inches of lenght , how can it break?

I'm not gonna argue with you man. They literally crack in half.
Do your research

 

[BRTreedogs]

Talley Lightweights or stay away?

I read lots of good reviews, but just enough bad ones that I'm a little leery. I'm going to try and piece together a lwt mtn rifle, shaving weight here and there is the plan, but don't want to get into a jackpot with failing rings. I've always used Leupold dovetail mounts in the past and have...

rokslide.com

 

[BRTreedogs]

 

[ssimo]

Time and time again in the nicely done scope tests on this forum the cautious factory recommended scope mount torque values have allowed scopes to slip - the same is true of overly cautious torque values for bases. The reason for these values to be on the light side is it prevents phone calls from angry customers - not enough torque doesn’t dent scopes, break screws or strip out marginal receiver threads.

With undamaged, properly formed receiver threads the maximum torque is dependent on the strength of the screw and the best screws cost significantly more to produce. For any manufacturer to make a few extra $ on every set of bases all they have to do is use cheap screws and recommend a low torque setting.

The bolt jumping happens with all bolt guns to some extent, but mass produced bolts are known for an issue that does affect accuracy. As the tigger is pulled and the firing pin begins to fall, the part that releases the firing pin snaps out of the way by the force of the firing pin spring and returns into position to catch the firing pin cocking piece as the action is cycled and recocked. If that part snaps out of the way and rebounds quick enough to slap the cocking piece before the primer strike then that isn‘t great. I’m guessing he puts a slight taper on the bottom of it. There’s probably a better explanation of this on the benchrest forums, but that’s the cliff notes version.

The guy seems knowledgeable to me - maybe he needs to better explain the reasoning behind the recommendations, but there is a fine line between enough information and saying so much a client’s head begins to spin and it becomes confusing.

On the fact that he is knowledgeable i have never had a single doubt. He designs rifles and build them, so..
I also understand why manufacturers are cautious about the recommended torque values (for the reason you said but also because that torque is generally more thsn enough to mek the setup work) but going from 30 to 60 in lbs without loctite is a weird advise to me.

And i am sure that the one you explained cab be a problem affecting accuracy but he didn't try it with a loaded chamber so it is pretty obvious that the bolt will move for the vibrations since there is no pressure from anywhere on the bolt.
Also a lot of people here and in other threads said that the bolt handle and knob moving slightly when dry firing is normal.

As always, 100 answers with 100 different opinions