Solve my velocity ES issue please!

[Pacific_Fork]

Hey roksliders and professional reloaders! I will try to keep this short but you know how that goes- My uncle reloads for me and we have been struggling with keeping a low ES (below 50 which I would prefer below 30). I use a Magneto Speed Chrono.

Rifle: Nosler Liberty with a Proof Carbon barrel with a nightforce ATACR 4-16
Caliber: 6.5x284 Norma
Barnes 127 LRX, Lapua Brass, Federal Match 210 primers, 52 Grains of RL19.

My cold bore shots at the range over the last year have been anywhere from 20-100 FPS slower than my average. And my ES on a great day is 52 and just recently 187 out of 10 shots. First cold bore shot was 2906 and my 6th shot was reading 3092. I want to give a quick run down on the process he is using.

1. Remove primers and anneal brass
2. Tumble clean brass
3. Rinse brass and s/s pins
4. Dry above and use brass dryer
5. Size brass
6. Measure brass
7. Size neck
8. Measure neck
9. Check neck for concentricity
10. Check primer hole
11. install primers
12. Powder load
13. Spot check brass for correct powder measurement after powder load
14. Install Bullet
15. Check bullet for concentricity

Uses a RCBS Match Master, Forester Co-AX press for full sizing, bushing, bump sizing, a century 21 neck reamer, RCBS summit press for seating bullets, redding competition seating die with #17 o-ring, accuracy one concentricity gauge.

We have played with seating depths, I think its the powder and that I need to get away from reloader 19 and try something different. Only because he shoots every .264 cartridge there is and has much better ES on all of them. sometimes single digits but all under 30 using N555 and H4350. I have shot multiple factory loads with good ES. Next week I am trying some Best of the west custom ammunition 140 gr bergers out of some hornady brass. Not a fan but was given 150 rounds for free.

Thoughts? Powder? Bullet? My rifle? Magneto speed chrono sucks? I suck? I have verified ranges out to 1000 yards with and made kill shots at 600, 570, and 480 on my last 3 deer and I feel some of that is luck that those 3 bullets were close enough to my average of 2950 FPS. But having that recent 187 ES scares me and is unacceptable. I greatly appreciate any advice or tips on what we may be missing here. Thanks in advance!

 

[Nealm66]

Man, that’s horrible. Process of elimination. Hard to believe it’s powder but you could load up 4 at a medium charge with some other powder and check. Are you annealing? And how? I’ve screwed up and put the wrong setting on my amp annealer and saw a big change on a 300 weatherby. Primers? Maybe swap for something different on 4 with a lighter load. Case fill? Shooting at an angle?

 

[Nealm66]

Also try single feeding

 

[JakeSCH]

Man I am going through the same thing...and it appears to be a powder / bullet / primer combo. I am loading up 213 HH with IMR 4955 and 260 HH with RL26. With the 213's I am seeing an ES of 50 but with 260's I have a single digit ES...both in the same rifle.

A couple things I am going to mess with:
1) Seating depth (seat deeper to add more baring surface in case mouth)
2) FCD try 3 different crimp settings (1/8T, 1/2T, 3/4T)
3) Swap out primers

 

[Nealm66]

Ya, I’m guessing with the Barnes you’ve probably got a decent jump to the lands and it might help to have good neck tension and a little crimp.

 

[willfrye027]

I have a few thoughts, FWIW

What brass are you using? I switched from hornady to lapua brass in my 25-06 and my load went from ES 40 to 10…

try a different powder. When you have the right combination, it just works..ES included

RL19 is notoriously temperature sensitive. I’d pick a different powder for that reason alone. After a few shots, your hot chamber could be heating up the round in the chamber enough to cause velocity increases.

final thought…how’s it shooting at your max effective distance? I’ve got a load for my 30-06 that has an ES of 50ish, 0.5 moa groups at 100 and hammers my 12 in gong at 600 yards…no reason to chase ES if the impacts are where you need them to be.

 

[FLS]

Try some H4350 or H4831 and verify your Matchmaster is throwing accurate loads.

 

[Keith Stone]

I’d rule out neck tension first.

Are you using a mandrel? Even when setting neck tension with bushing I have found inconsistencies especially between different brass manufacturers/neck wall thicknesses. Get a Sinclair mandrel body and a carbide mandrel or neck turning mandrel depending on wanting 1 or 2 thou tension and some imperial dry neck lube.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I’ve used everything from Hornady to Lapua brass and haven’t noticed that it made any difference in accuracy or low ES. I use a regular RCBS full length sizing die and can easily get in the low teens and single digit ES. You’ve got to find the powder type and charge weight that your rifle likes.

I’d quit reloading if I did all the steps that you do.

 

[Cahunter805]

I would definitely try another powder. I’d look into something like H4831SC or N560.
Also how did you determine your powder charge/node? Ladder test? OCW?

 

[kpk]

"Cold bore shots at the range over the last year have been anywhere from 20-100 FPS slower"

Letting rounds cook in a hot chamber??

Only other thing I could think would be neck tension.

 

[tdot]

What has the ES been on your last 5-10 cold bore shots? Preferably shot at similar temperatures. RE19 is temp sensitive, you could be experiencing an increase from the unfired cartridge either being heated in a hot chamber or the temp at the range is increasing. Do you leave your box of ammo in the sun while at the range?

I'd also suggest to beg, borrow or steal an extremely accurate scale and confirm the powder charges from the RCBS.

I've also personally played with how shooting form affects ES, and was surprised to see how much it changes things. Do you have other rifles/loads that shoot low ES? Has your Uncle fired the rifle and had similar results?

 

[Harvey_NW]

Remove wet tumbling from your process and only use a nylon neck brush. Squeaky clean brass is sticky and creates friction causing erratic ES, the carbon layer helps uniform the surface. Probably won't solve your whole issue but should help.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

Thanks for replies everyone. Ill answer a few questions below

- For annealing we are using the bench source machine every time after firing.
-We are using a sinclair mandrel or 21st century plus pre set neck die diameters
- On the OCW we are below maximum by a few grains. Currently at 52 with the RL19
- Ive had different cold bore shot ES between 2-3 different batches of RL19. That could explain some things as well. This newest batch is the worst, but we also went from 50 off the lands to 40 with this batch. One batch cold bore was 2987 then the next batch was 2847 followed by 2906. The batch with 2987 cold bore MV was the best and under 50 ES.

I cant imagine how shooting form would effect MV??

I think its the powder and going to try out H4831SC because at the moment thats the only powder we have left in bulk. Only a little bit of N560 and N165.

 

[Nealm66]

It will be interesting to see what you figure out and I suspect you definitely will. Don’t underestimate shooting technique with es. Strapping into a vice will give different results

 

[Flyjunky]

Thanks for replies everyone. Ill answer a few questions below

- For annealing we are using the bench source machine every time after firing.
-We are using a sinclair mandrel or 21st century plus pre set neck die diameters
- On the OCW we are below maximum by a few grains. Currently at 52 with the RL19
- Ive had different cold bore shot ES between 2-3 different batches of RL19. That could explain some things as well. This newest batch is the worst, but we also went from 50 off the lands to 40 with this batch. One batch cold bore was 2987 then the next batch was 2847 followed by 2906. The batch with 2987 cold bore MV was the best and under 50 ES.

I cant imagine how shooting form would effect MV??

I think its the powder and going to try out H4831SC because at the moment thats the only powder we have left in bulk. Only a little bit of N560 and N165.

I find it very interesting about your newest batch of RL19.

We loaded up a new batch for our 300wm and started a new 8lb jug of RL26. The difference between the new powder and the last is striking. We had to go from our old load of 74.9gr to 76.8 in order to get the same velocity. It groups great but having to go up that many grains to get it to shoot the same was unbelievable. Something is definitely up with some of the powder they are producing.

What did you find between your old lot and the new one?

 

[N2TRKYS]

Remove wet tumbling from your process and only use a nylon neck brush. Squeaky clean brass is sticky and creates friction causing erratic ES, the carbon layer helps uniform the surface. Probably won't solve your whole issue but should help.

I wet tumble my brass and haven’t found it to be an issue.

 

[Cahunter805]

Thanks for replies everyone. Ill answer a few questions below

- For annealing we are using the bench source machine every time after firing.
-We are using a sinclair mandrel or 21st century plus pre set neck die diameters
- On the OCW we are below maximum by a few grains. Currently at 52 with the RL19
- Ive had different cold bore shot ES between 2-3 different batches of RL19. That could explain some things as well. This newest batch is the worst, but we also went from 50 off the lands to 40 with this batch. One batch cold bore was 2987 then the next batch was 2847 followed by 2906. The batch with 2987 cold bore MV was the best and under 50 ES.

I cant imagine how shooting form would effect MV??

I think its the powder and going to try out H4831SC because at the moment thats the only powder we have left in bulk. Only a little bit of N560 and N165.

Sounds like you have a pretty solid process. I personally think it’s powder issue also. H4831SC is a great powder for the 6.5-284.
When you shoot your OCW take pictures of all the groups and report back.
Just curious how far from the lands are these loaded currently?

 

[Pacific_Fork]

Currently 40 off the lands. Last batch was 50, so it either got worse with moving the lands, powder lot, or both. But I feel like its mainly the powder.

I went to the range today again, only a 100 yarder though. Going to the 1000 yard + range next week. My cold bore shot out of the same hand loads was 3015 (compared to 2906 5 days ago). Thats nuts! My ES was better today at 56 but only off of 4 rounds. These loads are just all over the board!

I shot some custom hand loads from Copper Creek same bullet and casing. Shot great around 1/2 -3/4 MOA and 34 ES - 2908, 2921, 2887, 2898, 2903. I have a hunt next week and I am going to shoot these most likely.

Also shot some berger 140s from BOTW ammunitions and they also shot great with an ES of 48. 1st two rounds were 2964 and 2962. Then 2925 and 2973. Under 1 MOA.

Keep in mind I shoot prone off my bipod only, unless I am really trying to dial in a perfect zero or groupings. I already know all these bullets group well at 100.

Glad to hear that you think the H481SC is a good powder for my cartridge. Once we load some of these up I will report back.

 

[Peter_Martin]

What’s the age of the powder batches you’re using? I’ve heard some rumbling of poor quality control on various reloading components during this shortage as companies rush to put out product to try to keep up with demand.