Snow/Sod skirt?

[Ozzymodel70]

what do you guys think is it worth it?

 

[Bubblehide]

Yes, yes, and YES. If your ever in heavy winds, you want to be able to seal the tent bottom, the skirt, as you put it, allows that to easily be done. The wind can wreak havoc on your tent if you can't seal the wind out of the bottom. Years ago, I did a half ass job of sealing the sod cloth. My buddy and I went out hunting one day, and came back to a collapsed tent, and a bunch of work. To make a long story short, we drove into town and got a motel that night (actually morning by the time we got there). If it's an option on a tent, get it. Granted, if the tent material doesn't breath, condensation will be more of an issue, but a good stove burning low all night can often fix that.

 

[Ozzymodel70]

Yes, yes, and YES. If your ever in heavy winds, you want to be able to seal the tent bottom, the skirt, as you put it, allows that to easily be done. The wind can wreak havoc on your tent if you can't seal the wind out of the bottom. Years ago, I did a half ass job of sealing the sod cloth. My buddy and I went out hunting one day, and came back to a collapsed tent, and a bunch of work. To make a long story short, we drove into town and got a motel that night (actually morning by the time we got there). If it's an option on a tent, get it. Granted, if the tent material doesn't breath, condensation will be more of an issue, but a good stove burning low all night can often fix that.

thanks bubblehide that's exactly what I was thinking you answered all my questions. I actually never had second thoughts. but wondered about condensation

 

[Bubblehide]

ozzymodel70, your very welcome; and thanks for the thanks!

 

[Kevin Dill]

I would LOVE to find someone who could do a professional quality sod skirt on my Sawtooth.

 

[Bubblehide]

I would LOVE to find someone who could do a professional quality sod skirt on my Sawtooth.

With the design of the Sawtooth, I would think that condensation would be a significant issue if you had a sod skirt on it and sealed the bottom. I've never used a sawtooth, but I would think that you would have to run a stove all night, in-order to bring condensation down to non issue levels; which would make it a winter/cold weather tent. Granted, if you could keep a couple 2 foot, or so, areas open along the bottom, I think it would make a significant benefit in alleviating condensation, with the circulation it would provide. The issue is that in many high wind conditions, you would be limited to opening one side of the tent. I really like the added comfort of having heat in a tent, for the spread of reasons. I also like the idea of having a sod skirt on a tent. I just don't think it would be wise to add a skirt to any tent; the tent design, materials... may exclude a skirt from being a positive thing. Those materials that don't breath, or don't breath well, require ventilation to disperse the moisture exhaled by the occupants, so condensation does not become an issue. If you throw a skirt on such a tent, you have drastically reduced or eliminated the tents ventilation. That ventilation can also be necessary to maintain a normal dissolved oxygen level in the air inside the tent. Adding continuous dry heat clearly eliminates the condensation issue. But it does nothing in terms of ventilation unless it is drawing air from outside the tent; even then, it could be limited to the the stove burn. The fact is that, the stove requires oxygen to burn. As such, it consumes oxygen from the air. When using a stove in a confined space, such as a tent, ventilation becomes a significant factor/concern. the reduction in dissolved oxygen within the tent, from a stove, or from adding a sealed skirt may not kill you, but you certainly will not get the quality rest you would from a normal level of dissolved oxygen being in the air within the tent. It should be clear that this concern would increase as one gains altitude, due to "thinner air".

So in short, if a sod skirt is an option from a manufacturer, I would presume they have determined the tent is safe with the options they provide. However, if you modifying a tent, you may want to consider the above factors.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Thanks Bubblehide. Just for the sake of discussion, I think it's incumbent on every backcountry adventurer to understand their equipment and the risks inherent in use. If pushed, I would admit that I believe a woodstove in a tent or tipi has the potential to be very hazardous in terms of fire and related injuries. I don't ever burn mine unattended and I don't load it up and go to sleep...it burns when I can watch it. Some will think that's a bit nutty maybe, but I see it as being safe when I'm alone far from any rescue. I always provide some measure of ventilation (O2 intake) into the shelter when the stove is in use. I realize a slowly burning stove consumes oxygen, but in my opinion a guy would have to be awfully dedicated to seal things up tight enough (thinking zippers, doors, stove jacks, bottom perimeter) to impede fresh air infiltration enough to produce an O2 deficit. Part of it depends on design and size, but also the user and his understanding of principles.

Condensation is a beast in a cold, damp environment. I don't manage it with a stove, but use a liner to protect gear. Most of the time I just don't have time to mess with tending a stove. In those cold, damp environs I've seen venting help eliminate condensation during the day...I do it all the time but not via the lower perimeter, which stays snug to the ground in...example...Alaska. Even a decent sod skirt wouldn't have a marked impact on the amount of air which enters my tent in passive weather conditions. It would have a big impact on keeping it secured during wind gusts and hard blows which can take down or destroy a shelter. I was in those conditions last August and a sod skirt would have been a gigantic aid when the wind was howling. There wasn't any sod or snow to put on it, but an assortment of stones would have done the job. It was quite disconcerting to have the wind gusts billowing under the perimeter edges; this despite having a perfect tight pitch and all guy-outs in use. In any event, I would 100% agree with your advice for anyone to consider the various factors. I did just that and would be all-in a sod-skirt for my Sawtooth.

 

[Bubblehide]

Kevin, obviously you have an understanding of the factors involved, and know your equipment well. I'm sure you can find someone to professionally install a sod skirt. Personally, I am with you on having a skirt on a floor-less tent/shelter. And I am all for using a stove, but I will run the stove at night in calm conditions; but usually at such a low burn, that it's not making much of a difference in the tent's temperature. I do it because I can fill the stove with wood, open the dampener and instantly have heat in the morning (I'm lazy that way). But in windy conditions, I only use the stove when I can monitor it. If the wind picks up at night, after I have gone to bed, and I have left the stove barely burning, I empty it. I generally wire my stove pipe to the stove, squeezing them both together, so that those heavy wind conditions don't get the better of the stove and lift the roof of the tent enough to pull the stove pipe from the stove. Unfortunately I had to learn that lesson the had way, long ago; but it only took one time for me to learn that lesson. The way I view it (my way is not for everyone), as long as I am minimizing risk, some slight risk is worth a higher level of comfort; slight being the operative word though.

 

[Cliff Gray]

I have them on all our wall tents, but honestly the value is that they won't freeze on the ground like canvas will. You can probably deal with the wind issue by proper base staking and guy line staking. I'd bet that is the case with the sawtooth. Keep things tight and you won't get the issue. "Sodding them in" by covering the sod cloth is a pain in the a$$ and is actually against wilderness area regulations, although I'd guess it gets rarely enforced.

 

[orionsbrother]

Not direct knowledge, one of those "I heard about some guys" kind of things... so take it with a few grains of salt.

Somewhere along the line, I came across a guy who said he had two buddies that were weathered in during a freezing rain/ice storm. They fell asleep with a propane lantern burning which used up the oxygen in the tent and the ice shell on the tent prevented air infiltration and they both died of carbon monoxide.

I can't verify the story, but I can't imagine someone making something like that up. It's something that I keep in mind when I'm using my stove.

 

[JPD350]

Not direct knowledge, one of those "I heard about some guys" kind of things... so take it with a few grains of salt.

Somewhere along the line, I came across a guy who said he had two buddies that were weathered in during a freezing rain/ice storm. They fell asleep with a propane lantern burning which used up the oxygen in the tent and the ice shell on the tent prevented air infiltration and they both died of carbon monoxide.

I can't verify the story, but I can't imagine someone making something like that up. It's something that I keep in mind when I'm using my stove.

I was hunting with my Dad one winter and we were still hunting through the woods in NM, it had snowed during the night about 6" of nice wet snow. So we were walking in a quite wonderland and all of a sudden we started hearing a helicopter circling overhead and then we started hearing people talking loudly, we both just looked at each other thinking what the heck is going on so we moved towards the talking and there it was, a dome tent that looked like a big snow ball, as we walked towards all the commotion someone came over and told us to just move along because two guys fell asleep with a heater on and died in their sleep, he said when they opened the door the heater was making a popping sound.

Don't know if that was the story you had heard about but I saw this with my own eyes, ever since then I have been pretty vigilant about it not happening to me. This kind of thing probably happens more than it should, people hunt hard all day, eat their dinner and fall asleep with the heater or lantern on, I know I have fallen asleep with the lantern on before, scary stuff.

 

[Bubblehide]

I've read such stories in reputable news papers more than once over the years.

 

[Ozzymodel70]

Don't know if that was the story you had heard about but I saw this with my own eyes, ever since then I have been pretty vigilant about it no, scary stuff.

very scary and i'm glad its been brought up.

 

[orionsbrother]

Maybe. I can't recall where it happened, but I think about it because it seemed plausible. And here you are JPD, maybe an eyewitness to the exact incident. Maybe eyewitness to an eerily similar incident.

Regardless, I think it's a good idea to use caution. It does seem to be a scenario that could be reoccurring. Think about the families of those poor guys.

 

[Richard295]

Custom Sod Cloth aka Snow Skirt - BearPaw Wilderness Designs, LLC

I had BearPaw add a silnylon 18" width sod cloth + tie-ups to my SL5 in 2013. The price was $95 and $25 for shipping and insurance. The weight increase was 11.3 oz. The quality was high and the turnaround was only a few weeks. The integrated tie-up straps allow me to roll and raise any portion of the sod skirt I want up for ventilation.

I love this feature for winter camping since it eliminates internal drafts and spindrift for a relatively small weight penalty. To keep the sod skirt in place during high winds, all of the SL5 stake points needed to be fastened down. Without the full compliment of stakes, the sod skirt will blow open. I use titanium wire stakes to keep the skirt from blowing open alternating with MSR Groundhog stakes to keep the tent from blowing down.

 

[Hunt'nFish]

All my tents have sod skirts..... except the Mountainsmith LT, but I use it mainly as a fly.

Personally it don't think C.Monoxide is an issue with a properly drafted wood stove. And all tents should have a little fresh air venting. So I don't see someone dieing from low O2 during the night.

Adding a skirt to a tent is a very simple affair.
Doesn't even have to be purty... just functional.
Hunt'nFish

 

[colonel00]

I was going to add mine to my SL5. Actually, I had intended to add zippers around the perimeter so I could add a solid silnylon sod skirt or switch it out for bug netting for warmer weather usage. I never got around to it though and sold the SL5 when I picked up a Cimarron. It's still something in the back of my mind but the weight addition has always given me pause. The Cimarron is much better about usable space around the sides of the tent where the SL5 had such a slope to the sides that it had a lot of "unusable" spaced around the edges. Having a skirt would allow the tent to be pitched much higher.

I'd love if someone came out with a design like this DIY version. You have usable room right up to the outside wall:

http://www.wintertrekking.com/community/index.php?topic=3104.0

 

[rayporter]

years ago i tried to build a bottom onto a megamid like pic colonel00 shows. it turned into a giant sod skirt. but i could seal it.
the design has merit, i believe.

 

[Kevin Dill]

I used to ice-fish a lot...hundreds of days spent sitting in a small portable shelter with a propane heater running. I used about 4 different heaters in that time. I had some friends who used lanterns. We worked very hard to seal our shelters from winds and drafts...imagine below-zero temps and gusty winds. Our shelters all had snow-skirts and we would use shovels to pile snow on them to the point that no air could slip in. I was always wary of heater malfunctions, but in all the time (decades) I spent doing it (with hundreds of other guys out there on big ice) there was never an incident of CO poisoning or heater/lantern-related death. Don't misunderstand me: I never assume anything isn't possible. I'm simply relating what I've seen. One day I lit my heater and it turned into a fireball inside my shelter. I basically uprooted the shelter and kicked the heater away from me...watched it burn to a crispy hunk of blackened metal. I'm far more wary of fires in shelters than I am CO poisoning or O2 deficit. That's why I basically won't go to sleep with a fire or heater burning in a shelter. The odds are against injury, but the odds are high that any injury would be very serious or fatal. Anyway...the only source of heat I would use in a shelter is a woodstove which vents to the outside. Propane heaters and lanterns don't vent outside and any malfunction means potential CO exposure. Incidentally, I've been told a couple times that the catalytic heaters are far more likely to produce noxious or dangerous emissions (vs a lantern) and I believe that. I've been doing some searches looking for evidence of O2 deprivation in tents (the usual camping-type tents) and I can't find any proof of it related to the tent being sealed too well. I do see some evidence of CO poisoning (which actually causes hypoxia by displacing O2 in hemoglobin) when combustion byproducts are excessive and build up within. Fortunately those situations tend to only happen when a heat source malfunctions and not in normal operation. From a CO emissions perspective I believe a woodstove is basically as safe as it gets.

"I had BearPaw add a silnylon 18" width sod cloth + tie-ups to my SL5 in 2013. The price was $95 and $25 for shipping and insurance. The weight increase was 11.3 oz. The quality was high and the turnaround was only a few weeks. The integrated tie-up straps allow me to roll and raise any portion of the sod skirt I want up for ventilation."

Exactly what I have in mind, with the exception of making the skirt around 10" wide. The tie-ups are the only way to go.

 

[Richard295]

I'd love if someone came out with a design like this DIY version. You have usable room right up to the outside wall:

http://www.wintertrekking.com/community/index.php?topic=3104.0

View attachment 35583

Cabela's Outback Lodge Tent – 12' x 12' looks like a similar design.