Sighting In Advice

[goathunter.oregon]

I don't have much experience setting up a new rifle and I'd appreciate some advice on the setup I'm using to sight in a new scope.

I went out yesterday and used a table and a sled that are similar to these:


I set the scope to max power and got it where it was hitting the bullseye at 25 yards, then moved out to 100 yards and started shooting 3 shot groups. Despite shooting a box of ammo, I was never able to achieve a 3-shot group that I was happy with. Typically, 2 of the 3 would be within an inch of each other and the third would be 2" away. I don't have a lot of shooting experience and I'm sure this poor grouping is partly my skill and maybe also some bench setup problems.

The table folds in half for storage and what I found was that even the tiniest amount of weight would cause the table to flex and change the sight picture through the scope. Any amount of cheek pressure on the stock or pressure from my shoulder against the rear of the sled would cause the sight picture to change. I tried to setup each shot with as little pressure on the table or the sled or the rifle as possible, but it was not possible to completely eliminate all pressure. In the end, what I settled on was being able to hold the sight picture steady for 5 - 10 seconds while opening and closing my scope eye just to make sure it wasn't moving, then gently squeeze the trigger. The sled would jump after every shot and I'd have to start all over again (I didn't clamp the sled to the table).

After a while, I moved the sled to my tailgate and started shooting prone from the truck bed. My truck and the target were not on flat ground (I was shooting a bit uphill) and I had to raise the back of the sled to get on target. I did this by placing my pack under the back of the sled and then making a fist and placing the back of the sled on my fist. It worked, but my groups were not better than before.

I don't really have access to a shooting range, so I have to figure out how to do this the best I can with my own equipment and just going out into a clearcut logging area.

My questions:
1) I was watching a Meateater video on sighting in a rifle and they were using shooting bags under the fore-end with a bag under the buttstock:


Should I expect to get more stable and accurate results with a setup like this or should my sled produce similar results? My gun doesn't kick much (6.5 PRC w/brake), so I don't feel like I need a sled to protect my shoulder. It seems like being able to put the stock against my shoulder would be a better setup than using my sled.

2) It seems self-evident that having a rock-solid platform to shoot from would be better than using a table that flexes. Next time, I would either take a sheet of plywood to put on the table top or shoot from the truck bed with enough bags under the buttstock that I wouldn't have to use something less stable (like my hand). Given the terrain I was shooting, laying prone on the ground wouldn't work because I wouldn't be able to see the target. Other ideas?

3) Ultimately, I don't care about shooting bench groups, I care about making a good shot when I'm hunting. Should I call this sighting in session a success and just focus on shooting in the field or do I need to keep repeating this process until I can get tighter groups from the bench?

Thanks!

 

[Wrench]

Replicate your shooting environment for in field success.

If I have to shoot far, it'll be off my pack. I can throw my pack on my hood, the ground, a stump.....etc for in field verification.

4 leg tables are sleds are not how I'd start.

 

[Axlrod]

Bags on the ground would be much better than a table and a sled. The only table i use, is a concrete bench at the range. After you get it sighted in, use whatever setup you will be using out hunting to practice.

You will hear a lot of negative feedback on the lead sled, how they break scopes etc. I agree that they are not the right rest to use in most situations. But I have one I use with an 8# 416 Rigby and 60 #'s of lead. The SWFA on that rifle has over 300 rounds on the lead sled without issue. It is still not pleasant to shoot though!

 

[JoeDirt]

Sleds are nice if you're shooting a lot, getting your initial zero is fine with a sled. I will use a bench and sled to bore sight, take the bolt out look at the target through the bore (bolt end) and move the scope adjustments.

Tight groups for load workups is difficult, made worse with a folding table. The table needs to be rigid, ive found shooting prone with a bipod and bags are the best. Its quick and easy to setup for out in the field. If proper prone form is used it is extremely repeatable.

If you had a rigid shooting bench the sled or vice is fine but you will always need to readjust your zero to your normal hunting shooting position as the sled will throw off your natural point of aim.

 

[LongWayAround]

Ditch the sled and the table and turn down your scope. Shoot prone off your back or whatever with rear bag support. Learn to shoot with both eyes open.

Just my two cents ...

 

[Macintosh]

If you want to zero the rifle, you eliminate sources of error. Whatever janky setup you used is a big source of the problem. Yes, a wobbly table is harmful. Can you get on the ground? A snow shovel or a weedeater might allow you to see the target? Whatever is the most stable and allows you to get a good npoa. My preference is always prone for zeroing.
Bags are more precise, but whatever rest you’ll use (pack, bipod, etc) is sufficient, plus a bag for the butt.

Tons of people say that a lead sled will break your scope. Enough people have said it to me that there has to be something to it, so I dont use them. Its just not that hard to zero without , so barring a monster of a rifle I just dont see the advantage is enough to justify the possible problems.

You’re bore-sighted. If you want to zero, then stop adjusting, shoot a 10-round group at the same aiming point before you adjust anything. Then adjust by measuring off the center of that group. It may be a 2.5” group, but thats your group size—suck it up and measure from the center to your aim point and adjust that many clicks. Then you can fire a few rounds to confirm that all shots are falling into a circle that size of your 10-round group, directly on top of your point of aim. Thats your zero.
If zeroing takes you more than a box of ammo, even with larger group sizes, you’re either doing it wrong or your scope is broken.
Turning a 2.5” group into a 1” group is a different exercise, and likely involves making sure your action is not shifting in the stock, and action/rings/scope is not shifting, plus finding ammo your individual gun likes…in addition to working on your shooting (and shooting position).

What reticle do you have, a standard duplex or one with mil or moa hash-marks, or a yardage-based bdc type reticle?

If you have a hashed reticle this thread goes over zeroing and will be very helpful for you, and it applies to both mil and moa-based scopes. Posts 1-3 show zeroing.

Thread 'How to use a mil/mil scope-reticle, turrets and proper usage'

Jul 1, 2023

I have gotten a bunch of requests to write up a "how to" for using mil reticle scoots. In this case the SWFA Milquad reticle. It is the 6x42mm SS with MQ reticle in the pictures, however the process and use is the same as long as you have a scope who's reticle matches the turret adjustments- mil/mil or MOA/MOA. Mil/mil has some advantages, but the system works regardless.



The set up-



Tikka T3 SL in 223
SWFA SS 6x42mm MQ
Pic base and rings
Blackhills 5.56mm 77gr SMKs


Also a Leupold Mark4 12-40x60mm spotter with H32 reticle. This is not...

• Formidilosus
• Replies: 67
• Forum: Optics

• 

 

[SloppyJ]

I did some load dev yesterday. Bipod and bags. That is the way if you don't have a legit bench.

I have a cheap bag filled with rice for a front rest and I have a few rear bags. My favorite being a waxed game changer.

Your setup wasn't ideal but it could be the ammo too. That's why I started handloading.

 

[Koda_]

The table folds in half for storage and what I found was that even the tiniest amount of weight would cause the table to flex and change the sight picture through the scope. Any amount of cheek pressure on the stock or pressure from my shoulder against the rear of the sled would cause the sight picture to change. I tried to setup each shot with as little pressure on the table or the sled or the rifle as possible, but it was not possible to completely eliminate all pressure. In the end, what I settled on was being able to hold the sight picture steady for 5 - 10 seconds while opening and closing my scope eye just to make sure it wasn't moving, then gently squeeze the trigger. The sled would jump after every shot and I'd have to start all over again (I didn't clamp the sled to the table).

Yeah, ditch the folding table and the led sled. Ive been there exactly the same (if you load the table forward pressure till you feel its resistance it helps but really, ditch the folding table).

First, ditch the sled... those can be harmful to rifles and scopes actually, which are designed to move rearward under recoil and anything preventing that may cause damage. What you need is a decent front rest. A basic Caldwell Jr will work to get started, just be sure to not let the front sling stud touch the front rest... you want the recoil to move straight back. Rear sandbags are helpful.

Next you need a solid shooting surface, something that doesnt move at all. Dont use your truck bed. You can try prone on the ground is good, otherwise you need a real shooting table or a real benchrest like at a gun club. If you dont have a club membership consider buying (or making) a portable shooting table, one designed to be stable. The heavier the better.

Caldwell Rock Jr. Rifle Front Shooting Rest

The Caldwell Rock Jr. Rifle Front Shooting Rest is packed with many of the features of a premium rest, in a smaller, lightweight package. The stable...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[KenLee]

A sled won't hurt any decent scope without extra weight on the sled.
What type hunting and and how far are you expecting to shoot?
I"ve zeroed scopes on the same wellhouse for 51 years. Started with the scope provided with Crossman 760 bb gun.

 

[ChrisAU]

Sleds will break stocks, that’s a fact.

 

[greyghostnw]

I do all load dev and zero off bi pod and rear bag, same set up as i carry in high country. No fancy shmancy set up thats irrelevant to your field fundamentals… if new scope or rifles newly bedded ill bore sight at a reasonable distance at house then proceed to area to shoot…validation one round to confirm hitting anywhere on paper at 50 cuz its quick n dirty then move to 100. Good luck

 

[TaperPin]

It’s a good thing to learn how different surfaces affect group size. Tables, any portable table including those specifically designed for shooting, will increase group size. The hood or bed of a truck is only as steady as the springs and tires - fart and the truck moves.

Prone or concrete bench with two bags is best. Some get just as good of groups with bipods, others don’t like how they effect groups with their rifle.

Nobody can say all mechanical tests are bad or good. It has to have some give to it or the jarring is hard on stocks and scopes. If it’s fairly light weight as many are, and aren’t weighted down or screwed onto a wood bench, there’s not much danger to the rifle, but they aren’t automatically going to produce the best accuracy. No mechanical rest is going to duplicate the shoulder pressure a hunter uses, so it will not have the same point of impact. Sometimes it’s minimal and sometimes it’s a MOA or more.

 

[Desert_Muley]

You didn't mention time between shots or possible wind conditions. If you are shooting a standard thin profile hunting barrel heat might be an issue on the third shot. I have never used a lead sled so can't speak to it but I agree on using the most stable platform to determine what your ammo rifle combination is capable of. This will be your combo's baseline. Once you find a combo you are happy with proceed to practicing filed conditions. This will help you, the shooter, determin your limits and what you need to improve on. I hope this helps and good luck.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Take the advice here and ditch the sled. They are a net negative in all aspects.

Use a heavy front bag that allows the gun to recoil straight back. A very low filled rear bag with your off hand supporting and controlling the toe still is what you’re after. The bag is used to simply “fill the void” and should not be overly stiff.

Keep you shoulders and body square behind the gun. Don’t let the gun sit on your clavicle too far inside. Don’t overthink “cheek weld” and slam your face into the stock. It should be controlled/consistent applied pressure and nothing more.

Thumb should be inline with the bore as much as possible without “resting” it on the side of the stock or wrapping way around. In the photo below my thumb is in position to work the safety, to shoot it would be further up and around the tang just a bit without a full “wrap grip”.

When shooters start to apply the above and shoot more often their “groups” start to tighten up.

Ignore anything above about a barrel heating up over 3 shots. If you have a barrel that’s stringing shots due to 3, 5, or even 10 shot groups I’d throw that barrel in the garbage.

With the position information above and applying good breathing and shooting habits, and shooting often, you should be able to lay down and put 5 shots from nearly any off the shelf rifle into a 1.5 MOA target at 100 yards with good/known ammo. This is assuming the gun, scope, stock, and all mating/mounting points are installed properly and aren’t causing shifts.

 

[goathunter.oregon]

If you want to zero the rifle, you eliminate sources of error. Whatever janky setup you used is a big source of the problem. Yes, a wobbly table is harmful. Can you get on the ground? A snow shovel or a weedeater might allow you to see the target? Whatever is the most stable and allows you to get a good npoa. My preference is always prone for zeroing.
Bags are more precise, but whatever rest you’ll use (pack, bipod, etc) is sufficient, plus a bag for the butt.

Tons of people say that a lead sled will break your scope. Enough people have said it to me that there has to be something to it, so I dont use them. Its just not that hard to zero without , so barring a monster of a rifle I just dont see the advantage is enough to justify the possible problems.

You’re bore-sighted. If you want to zero, then stop adjusting, shoot a 10-round group at the same aiming point before you adjust anything. Then adjust by measuring off the center of that group. It may be a 2.5” group, but thats your group size—suck it up and measure from the center to your aim point and adjust that many clicks. Then you can fire a few rounds to confirm that all shots are falling into a circle that size of your 10-round group, directly on top of your point of aim. Thats your zero.
If zeroing takes you more than a box of ammo, even with larger group sizes, you’re either doing it wrong or your scope is broken.
Turning a 2.5” group into a 1” group is a different exercise, and likely involves making sure your action is not shifting in the stock, and action/rings/scope is not shifting, plus finding ammo your individual gun likes…in addition to working on your shooting (and shooting position).

What reticle do you have, a standard duplex or one with mil or moa hash-marks, or a yardage-based bdc type reticle?

If you have a hashed reticle this thread goes over zeroing and will be very helpful for you, and it applies to both mil and moa-based scopes. Posts 1-3 show zeroing.

Thread 'How to use a mil/mil scope-reticle, turrets and proper usage'

Jul 1, 2023

I have gotten a bunch of requests to write up a "how to" for using mil reticle scoots. In this case the SWFA Milquad reticle. It is the 6x42mm SS with MQ reticle in the pictures, however the process and use is the same as long as you have a scope who's reticle matches the turret adjustments- mil/mil or MOA/MOA. Mil/mil has some advantages, but the system works regardless.



The set up-



Tikka T3 SL in 223
SWFA SS 6x42mm MQ
Pic base and rings
Blackhills 5.56mm 77gr SMKs


Also a Leupold Mark4 12-40x60mm spotter with H32 reticle. This is not...

• Formidilosus
• Replies: 67
• Forum: Optics

• 

My scope has MOA hash marks. Thanks for the article reference, I'll dig into it!

 

[goathunter.oregon]

Take the advice here and ditch the sled. They are a net negative in all aspects.

Use a heavy front bag that allows the gun to recoil straight back. A very low filled rear bag with your off hand supporting and controlling the toe still is what you’re after. The bag is used to simply “fill the void” and should not be overly stiff.

Keep you shoulders and body square behind the gun. Don’t let the gun sit on your clavicle too far inside. Don’t overthink “cheek weld” and slam your face into the stock. It should be controlled/consistent applied pressure and nothing more.

Thumb should be inline with the bore as much as possible without “resting” it on the side of the stock or wrapping way around. In the photo below my thumb is in position to work the safety, to shoot it would be further up and around the tang just a bit without a full “wrap grip”.

When shooters start to apply the above and shoot more often their “groups” start to tighten up.

Ignore anything above about a barrel heating up over 3 shots. If you have a barrel that’s stringing shots due to 3, 5, or even 10 shot groups I’d throw that barrel in the garbage.

With the position information above and applying good breathing and shooting habits, and shooting often, you should be able to lay down and put 5 shots from nearly any off the shelf rifle into a 1.5 MOA target at 100 yards with good/known ammo. This is assuming the gun, scope, stock, and all mating/mounting points are installed properly and aren’t causing shifts.

Thanks for the tips. I have a bipod, so I'll go back out with the bipod, rear bag, and shoot prone from the ground. I notice from your photos that I was trying to do the "full wrap grip" and I'll stop doing that too.

 

[goathunter.oregon]

After I made this post, Rokslide suggested this thread: https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/shooting-rests-bags-lead-sleds-etc.396663/

It contains a link to a Gunwerks video that I found helpful too. I appreciate all the comments here.

 

[goathunter.oregon]

A sled won't hurt any decent scope without extra weight on the sled.
What type hunting and and how far are you expecting to shoot?
I"ve zeroed scopes on the same wellhouse for 51 years. Started with the scope provided with Crossman 760 bb gun.

I'm mainly hunting bears and deer in open mountain country, 100 - 300 yards.

 

[Koda_]

For zero work remove all human input influence as possible to learn what the rifle is capable of. For practical marksmanship work, learn how to shoot what the rifle is capable of.
The latter will expose your limits to work on overcoming.

 

[KenLee]

I'm mainly hunting bears and deer in open mountain country, 100 - 300 yards.

https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Gear-Bench-Rest/dp/B0127NCR6M

I sure wouldn't be shooting prone to zero a rifle I'll be shooting sitting or standing up.
I zero standing behind this type rest or a sled. Then proof zero sitting in a ladder stand or box stand shooting off a rail. 100-300 yards isn't rocket science or require an Olympic medal.