Sidearm for Brooks Range, AK

[UglyArcher]

The scenario...you and another guy are doing a fly in - float out archery hunting trip and neither of you wants to haul a rifle or shotgun along. Instead you will both carry spray and a sidearm. You have two weapons to choose from, a S&W 329PD (.44mag wheel gun) w/ 4" barrel or a Glock G40 (10mm auto) w/ 6" barrel. THESE ARE YOU SOLE CHOICES-DON'T RECOMMEND ANYTHING ELSE.

We've all seen the argument for and against:

You want no regrets as the bush plane that just dropped you off disappears over the horizon. What's strapped to you and why? I made up my mind and will share my choice and reason for it once you guys have posted your opinions.

Lower 48,10mm,Real Bears, .44.

 

[Salmonchaser]

ADFG has a study that reveals surprising success with handguns due in no small measure to the handgun being on your person. Spray works well also.
I’ve been involved in two DLP killings and have sprayed 3 grizz.
Training as has been mentioned is kind of tough to pull off but the body can’t go where the brain has never been.
Me, if limiting myself to a handgun, I’ll take the 44. A chest holster keeps the pistol out of the way and readily available. Additionally the chest holster puts the pistol where your hands will instinctively, protecting your vitals, go if you’re surprised by the attack.

 

[deerkiller]

Also you may not even know the bear is after you until it is on top of you.
there was a guy a couple years ago that was attacked by Ennis, MT and was packing a Glock, i believe.
He was attacked and never had a chance to grab his gun. After the bear left the guy was heading out of the area and was attacked a second time and didnt get his gun out.

VERY good point and it seems like that "second attack" can occur in the short aftermath comparatively often - ANOTHER good reason for a chest holster rig since one might find himself on the ground with a large "being" on top and hands/arms not movable to reach for anything outside of defensive posturing

There was a story some years back of a hunter, with a girlfriend along, field dressing an elk who was attacked and didn't see it coming due to being busy … girlfriend grabbed his rifle and ended the attack - Point being, a person can be engaged in a bunch of activities on a trip like that where your attention is elsewhere than looking for a bear, even if only for moments - It occurs to me that a "buddy system" may be a wise habit also

 

[Shraggs]

I suppose most of these 'choose one' scenarios tend to focus primarily...if not entirely...on the gun and its cartridge. Less attention is given to the other 2 entities in the surmised attack, which are the bear, and the human being attacked.

It's only human nature to develop some type of mental vision of a bear attack scenario. The likelihood of any attack following this scenario is probably remote. Bears attack fast and humans tend to be surprised and shocked by the encounter. It's one thing to operate a sidearm when fully expecting a need to defend against attack....and another to do it when caught by complete surprise. Most of us logically make our sidearm choices based on rational thinking about the most effective firearm for us; but we have to do it using anticipated scenarios. We can certainly know exactly how a given cartridge performs from a given gun. We have NO way of knowing exactly how we or the bear will perform at the critical juncture of an attack.

My point is that it's logical to focus on the firearm and load, because it's a tangible, provable thing. But combining that decision with anticipated scenarios where 1) the bear does this, and 2) we do that....leaves a lot to the imagination. I fully realize it has to be this way too, because we can't go practice our defensive shooting on actual attacking grizzlies. When attacking bear meets surprised human there is no formula....only chaos. When that happens I want a round that hits hard; a gun that I'm accurate with, and I'm really only thinking about a couple shots....maybe 3... before the situation is resolved or has gone to critical. I truly believe the availability of rounds 7 through 14 are mainly academic based on every bear attack account (I can recall) in which a sidearm was used to successfully haze, wound or kill a threatening bear.

I own S&W 629 and glock 20sf. Two reasons on a archery hunt I choose the glock.

First, I can’t get 2 fast shots off with 44 mag, second is high and right. I did some math and felt it would be cheaper to buy the glock then train thru the ammo required to be proficient with a 44. I shoot the 10mm very well... gives me confidence, and I say say that with the humility of something I don’t want to happen.

Second, it’s so much lighter. And the most rounds I have carried is 9.

I have intensions of learning to shoot a 44 mag well however

 

[BuckSnort]

Situation awareness will be more important than which weapon you chose so choose what you have the most practice/confidence with..

Having said that make sure whichever you choose that you file the sights off nice and smooth....

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I carry a 10mm glock 90% of the time. I don't have the longslide one, just the g20 well actually 2 or 3 of them currently. Ive been shooting the g20 platform for almost 10 years and feel very comfortable and accurate with it.

I have a 44 and a 454 but they are big, heavy, low capacity, harder to make good follow up shots. Not that they arent effective but I like the size, weight and capacity of the Glock 20.

 

[GLB]

I carry a Glock 20SF with my handloads anytime I'm bowhunting or doing a hike.

 

[Salmonchaser]

In 20 years of guiding in the Bristol bay region I’ve seen people do some interesting things when confronted by a bear. With out question my guests who have been stress inoculated, cops, fire fighters, E/R nurses, combat vets are always a step ahead. More importantly when I conducted their mini bear school they actually paid attention. They remembered what to do, that keeps things calmer, keeps our group looking more like a potential adversary and not a free lunch. It is a very rare day we don’t have a bear within 50 yards, I’ve had more then 20 bears inside 50 yards in a day, that gets stressful.
In any event I believe it’s the seemingly little things that make a difference. Condition yellow is routine. When I’m mending a clients fly line I admonish them to keep watch, not to worry about fish being caught. Also teach them to look up and down river when casting. It makes a big difference to the bear if you alert on them early, from that point on, no two contacts are the same.
When I’m doing guide chores, I like to work from the ground, watching what is going on behind us. Much faster, and nothing spills, if you can simply set the fly box down and deal with bear.
Buddy up, no one out of site, don’t run and covey up. The people farthest from the bear move towards the people closest, while they are moving away. General stuff.
Bear Spray it works very well on pushy bears, those that are too close but not attacking. I’ve sprayed three, seen it done another 1/2 dozen times.
Also been documented to stop charges/attacks. Certainly beats sticks and rocks.
Bear spray doesn’t do any good in your pack or loose in the boat somewhere.
If you carry a primary weapon system I’d carry the spray with a weak hand draw.
I always carry a gun always carry bear spray.
I also carry a whistle. My opinion a long loud blast has been more effective then warning shots, really seems to bother the bears.
I almost had to shoot a bear I tried to drive off by throwing rocks. He turned was leaving so I threw a couple more for good measure. Hit him right between the ears. Ok dumb won’t do that again.
If you happen to be in the national park or wildlife refuges in Alaska you will get arrested for firing warning shots or for throwing rocks or sticks at bears. Seen it happen.
The o/p obviously has done a lot of thinking on the subject, outstanding. Body simply can’t go where the brain has never been.
Some things I’ve done training my guides, obviously weapon safe protocol. Belt holster vs chest. Guide on his back two guys roughing him up on the ground. My little GSP adds some realism by jumping in and nipping. Real easy to keep him from getting to a belt holster, more efficient getting to the chest holster.
Moving and shooting, absolutely, spraying as well. Don’t be where the bear last saw you.
We used to have a blow up doll( long story) and an oil drum with a bear hide on it, mounted on wheels, I teach the guys to just take center mass of the front end and press the trigger, that’s all you have time for if he is coming hard. If you want to have some fun mount a drum on four bike tires, long rope off the trailer hitch, have someone drive the truck close at 20 to 30 mph with the drum bouncing along 20 yards behind. Throw the gun up and shoot as soon as the front site settles.
Another drill I’ve done is set the drum on top of the blow up doll, arms wrapped around the head of the bear. Typical response is I can’t shoot him in the head her arm is in the way. I remind him of two things, she may live w/o an arm you have a tourniquet in your first aid kit she won’t live disemboweled. Guess that’s 3. I also point out the alternative shot might be a contact shot to the pelvis as they approach. Break him down right there and then finish him. Just something to think about. What I stress when talking about shooting a bear that is on a client is to close and press the attack.
Both DLP shootings I witnessed my dad did the shooting. In both cases he pressed the attack, both were handled Alaska old school, that is buck shot to the face followed by slugs. Seems to have fallen on disfavor but that’s what all the old sourdoughs recommended.
The reality is, even in Alaska, you’re more likely to be struck by lightning then killed by a bear. Keep your head on a swivel, keep a clean camp, stay calm organized and give them room will normally keep you out of trouble.
A44 or a 10mm really doesn’t make much difference to me, either will feel very small when grizz are close. If you have an ounce of common sense you’ll be hoping you don’t have to use it.
.
As someone noted buddy up

I carry a Glock 20SF with my handloads anytime I'm bowhunting or doing a hike.

 

[deerkiller]

In 20 years of guiding in the Bristol bay region I’ve seen people do some interesting things when confronted by a bear. With out question my guests who have been stress inoculated, cops, fire fighters, E/R nurses, combat vets are always a step ahead. More importantly when I conducted their mini bear school they actually paid attention. They remembered what to do, that keeps things calmer, keeps our group looking more like a potential adversary and not a free lunch. It is a very rare day we don’t have a bear within 50 yards, I’ve had more then 20 bears inside 50 yards in a day, that gets stressful.
In any event I believe it’s the seemingly little things that make a difference. Condition yellow is routine. When I’m mending a clients fly line I admonish them to keep watch, not to worry about fish being caught. Also teach them to look up and down river when casting. It makes a big difference to the bear if you alert on them early, from that point on, no two contacts are the same.
When I’m doing guide chores, I like to work from the ground, watching what is going on behind us. Much faster, and nothing spills, if you can simply set the fly box down and deal with bear.
Buddy up, no one out of site, don’t run and covey up. The people farthest from the bear move towards the people closest, while they are moving away. General stuff.
Bear Spray it works very well on pushy bears, those that are too close but not attacking. I’ve sprayed three, seen it done another 1/2 dozen times.
Also been documented to stop charges/attacks. Certainly beats sticks and rocks.
Bear spray doesn’t do any good in your pack or loose in the boat somewhere.
If you carry a primary weapon system I’d carry the spray with a weak hand draw.
I always carry a gun always carry bear spray.
I also carry a whistle. My opinion a long loud blast has been more effective then warning shots, really seems to bother the bears.
I almost had to shoot a bear I tried to drive off by throwing rocks. He turned was leaving so I threw a couple more for good measure. Hit him right between the ears. Ok dumb won’t do that again.
If you happen to be in the national park or wildlife refuges in Alaska you will get arrested for firing warning shots or for throwing rocks or sticks at bears. Seen it happen.
The o/p obviously has done a lot of thinking on the subject, outstanding. Body simply can’t go where the brain has never been.
Some things I’ve done training my guides, obviously weapon safe protocol. Belt holster vs chest. Guide on his back two guys roughing him up on the ground. My little GSP adds some realism by jumping in and nipping. Real easy to keep him from getting to a belt holster, more efficient getting to the chest holster.
Moving and shooting, absolutely, spraying as well. Don’t be where the bear last saw you.
We used to have a blow up doll( long story) and an oil drum with a bear hide on it, mounted on wheels, I teach the guys to just take center mass of the front end and press the trigger, that’s all you have time for if he is coming hard. If you want to have some fun mount a drum on four bike tires, long rope off the trailer hitch, have someone drive the truck close at 20 to 30 mph with the drum bouncing along 20 yards behind. Throw the gun up and shoot as soon as the front site settles.
Another drill I’ve done is set the drum on top of the blow up doll, arms wrapped around the head of the bear. Typical response is I can’t shoot him in the head her arm is in the way. I remind him of two things, she may live w/o an arm you have a tourniquet in your first aid kit she won’t live disemboweled. Guess that’s 3. I also point out the alternative shot might be a contact shot to the pelvis as they approach. Break him down right there and then finish him. Just something to think about. What I stress when talking about shooting a bear that is on a client is to close and press the attack.
Both DLP shootings I witnessed my dad did the shooting. In both cases he pressed the attack, both were handled Alaska old school, that is buck shot to the face followed by slugs. Seems to have fallen on disfavor but that’s what all the old sourdoughs recommended.
The reality is, even in Alaska, you’re more likely to be struck by lightning then killed by a bear. Keep your head on a swivel, keep a clean camp, stay calm organized and give them room will normally keep you out of trouble.
A44 or a 10mm really doesn’t make much difference to me, either will feel very small when grizz are close. If you have an ounce of common sense you’ll be hoping you don’t have to use it. View attachment 93522View attachment 93523View attachment 93524View attachment 93525
.
As someone noted buddy up

AWESOME, and I MEAN AWESOME review, or tutorial might be a better description

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Chose the Glock 40 w/ Buffalo Bore heavy ammo for several reasons.

1. I carry a Glock 22 daily and the G40 feels and shoots much the same making me more familiar and accurate with the 10mm. Shooting the UL .44 hurts, is slower to get back on target and has a much smaller capacity.
2. The 6" barrel keeps me on paper are twice the distance of the UL .44 and shot placement (hitting the nervous system) is the ONLY THING THAT CAN SAVE YOU in a charge from a bear. I feel more confident that I can do that with the G40.
3. Assuming you even have time to draw and fire, most expect to get off 1 to 3 rounds however, if the difference in recoil and action between the two handguns enables the Glock shooter to squeeze off just one more round...that is a 33-50 percent advantage. Bullet weight and KE mean nothing if you fail to hit the central nervous system.
4. As pointed out above, the revolver may be a pleasure to carry but in addition to being unpleasant to shoot, it is anything but infallible. I don't trust it to perform in intense environmental and abusive use. Meanwhile there are videos of Glocks that were buried for years,dug up, rinsed off and proceed to shoot flawlessly until the gun melts after several hundred rounds. Glocks seem to always fire.
5. If the situation allowed for a warning shot (unlikely but possible) you have 16 rounds. I'd hate to hafta kill momma bear with two cubs nearby. Warning shots have stopped attacks on rafts before.

There you have it...my rationale. May not be your best solution but I can draw and fire quickly (insert SD training here) and this is the most comfortable option for me. I really like the Delta Point sight too.

I practice drawing my weapon and spray (with left hand) and will add a whistle to my pack strap as well. Great tip! Thanks for that.

 

[BXB77]

So I will throw in my two cents, although I don't have much real world experience. If you get attacked by a bear it will likely be on you before you can get a shot off, and you will be in a point blank situation. I would worry about pressing the Glock's muzzle next to the bear and having the slide come out of battery and not fire. From my understanding it doesn't take much movement to knock it out of battery. I think that is where the wheel gun would be a better option.

 

[Kevin Dill]

The question: When faced with a bear attack, do you prefer a .44 Mag or a 10 mm?

The answer: At a minimum!

 

[Jimbob]

Living in Canada handgun is not an option. My Dad is afraid of grizzlies and offered to buy me a shotgun set-up for bear defense but I declined because I would not carry it. When I am out fishing or archery hunting I am not going to have a shotgun strapped to my back. I guess it would be cool to have the shotgun at camp but how useful is that?

Great tips in this thread, I might add a whistle to my arsenal. Man, I sure would feel tuff blowing a whistle at a grizz but if it works then awesome.

 

[Gunnersdad49]

I would worry about pressing the Glock's muzzle next to the bear and having the slide come out of battery and not fire. From my understanding it doesn't take much movement to knock it out of battery.

This is a valid concern, but there are methods to combat this if you train with them. The simplest is to pull the gun back, which is counter intuitive. The other is to press the support hand hard against the back of the slide. This presses the slide back into battery, and allows a single round to be fired. It does, unfortunately turn your Glock into a single shot until you manually rack the slide again. The first is obviously more preferable.

 

[hodgeman]

Something to remember with contact distance shooting and an auto- if you fire with the muzzle pressed up against an animal, you can get a hydraulic spray of blood, tissue, hair, etc. back into the action that can really tie the gun up.

If I think I might have to pull the trigger with the muzzle pushed into a bears gut...I'd probably want a revolver.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Nice thing with a revolver: If you experience a misfire or dead round, another pull of the trigger has you in action again.

 

[Mike7]

Salmonchaser, best bear post that I have seen on this forum in my opinion...lots of little nuggets & details in there that I would guess many people might gloss right over. The breaking down the pelvis circumstance recommendation is interesting. I like the whistle tip and ergonomics of the spray & then the weak side chest holster handgun carry. Your comments remind me of the Little Giants movie where the kids are told that football is 40% physical and 80% mental, except I suspect that dealing with bears is a much higher % mental than that

Bruce, I think your reasoning is sound. As already stated above there are pros and cons to everything, but I have seen revolvers rust and fail (only to be fixed by gunsmiths), or fail from too hot of ammunition...potentially a problem for people shooting hot hardcast rounds. That Glock can be field stripped in seconds and cleaned of debris if need be, and the darn things just don't rust in prolonged cold wet weather.

There seems to be a lot of smart people on this thread. Maybe someone here knows?...but I still haven't found someone to explain to me why a 44 mag shooting hardcast bullets is better than a 10 mm against bears? I keep hearing about the superior knock down power of the 44, but what are you knocking down?...your putting a hole in something right with a relatively slow round that is not destroying much outside of its path? Is there a bear alive that a 10mm 200gr hardcast bullet going 1,200 fps won't fully penetrate, but a 44 mag will?

 

[Mike7]

And what is this about a hydraulic spray of blood and tissue coming back into a pistol that is shooting a hardcast bear handgun round at close quarters?

Having been involved in the care of living humans or animals shot w/ handgun or rifle rounds, or in on autopsies of gunshot victims, I have an idea of which side I am leaning toward with the above questions, but I am willing to change my mind if someone can make some informed good points. Maybe some guys with anatomy knowledge who do postmortems on their handgun and rifle harvested animals?

 

[Salmonchaser]

And what is this about a hydraulic spray of blood and tissue coming back into a pistol that is shooting a hardcast bear handgun round at close quarters?

Having been involved in the care of living humans or animals shot w/ handgun or rifle rounds, or in on autopsies of gunshot victims, I have an idea of which side I am leaning toward with the above questions, but I am willing to change my mind if someone can make some informed good points. Maybe some guys with anatomy knowledge who do postmortems on their handgun and rifle harvested animals?

Mike I read your question quickly but if you are questioning the hydraulic effect, I’ve seen video of it at the Washington State Police Academy. Don’t remember if it was in a range class or a forensic class, either way it was a long time ago.

 

[Kevin Dill]

I believe that hydraulic spray of blood (and other wound tissue) is commonly referred to as backspatter. The easiest way to visualize it is to watch a slow motion video of a handgun projectile entering a gel block. You'll see a backward bulge in the gel which would equate to energy directed opposite to the direction of bullet travel. In a human, bear or other living creature the result is typically a backward spray of blood and perhaps fragmented or liquefied tissue. In this video you will also see a secondary expulsion of energy toward the entrance. (You may need to sign into a youtube or google account to view this)

The effect of this would likely be magnified by a very close range or muzzle-contact shot which would add the energy of muzzle blast to the entrance hole (wound).

As for the question about knockdown power, anyone claiming their .44 mag or 10 mm has the power to knock down a bear (aside from a direct CNS hit) is dramatically overstating the gun's abilities. A .22 magnum will certainly 'knock down' a grizzly with a skull shot at 6 feet. Meanwhile a .44 mag or 10 mm in NOT knocking down a big bear quickly with a general body shot. Hit them accurately to do the best job. BUT, all things being equal there is no downside to a projectile carrying a higher level of energy and potential greater penetration in both bone and soft tissue. That advantage might show up in the form of greater damage to heavy skeletal areas like the shoulder, pelvis and large leg bones....thus slowing an attack or potentially disabling a bear.