"Sickening - How Big Pharma Broke American Health Care"

[Rob5589]

Saul Alinsky.

I drive and voice text, difficult.

Let just ask you about one of your statements, that was written as fact.

Can you prove vioxx killed people, be specific?

Vioxx, I remember that one. The info is out there if you care to look.

Vioxx | Treatment for Arthritis & Recall for Patient Deaths

Learn the history of the once popular NSAID pain reliever, Vioxx. Read about Merck's withdrawal of Vioxx due to its link to heart attacks, strokes & death.

www.drugwatch.com

What have we learnt from Vioxx? - PMC

In October UK patients who had cardiovascular events while taking rofecoxib lost the right to fight Merck in the US for compensation. But researchers and journals can still benefit from this case if they learn from the mistakes, write Harlan ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Vioxx: Side Effects, Dosage & Uses - Drugs.com

Vioxx information from Drugs.com, includes Vioxx side effects, interactions, indications

www.drugs.com

 

[fwafwow]

Saul Alinsky.

I drive and voice text, difficult.

Let just ask you about one of your statements, that was written as fact.

Can you prove vioxx killed people, be specific?

I’m not sure I can “prove” the likely deaths. If you want a name, I’d have to do your research. There is a 17 year old honors student and gymnast described in the book (chapter 1), but her name was changed. The author says that a Vioxx induced clot was the “likely” cause of her death. “Likely” was the word I used that you quoted - not exactly “fact”.

Not as specific as you may have been hoping for, but here’s another quote from the book: “The authors [of an article in The Lancet] estimated that Vioxx was responsible for between 88,000 and 140,000 heart attacks during its five years on the U.S. market. This meant 40,000 to 60,000 Americans died as a result of taking Vioxx….”

But they could be wrong.

 

[Shraggs]

If I care to look, do my research…

I worked there.

Websites listed above as facts. an author as your source. seems more a narrative, facts seem not matter in this crowd.

I guess by definition then if someone dies, and I noticed that crest was used for 39 years, and another academic wrote back then that toothpaste caused cancer. It must have been the toothpaste. Interesting logic brought here.

I’ll ask again, do you know anything about alleged deaths, dosing for treatment, etc Associated with treatment with vioxx. You seem pretty firm in your knowledge, or narrative?

 

[5MilesBack]

Tough gig trying to come up with a solution for diet reccomendation for 300 million people.

Why do you think that 300 million people need or even want someone giving them diet recommendations? If folks won't follow even the simplest concept of "everything in moderation", would anyone really expect them to follow any other recommendations? Eating is one of the most basic activities under free will. But then again........so is "choosing" whether to take medications or not.

 

[fwafwow]

If I care to look, do my research…

I worked there.

Websites listed above as facts. an author as your source. seems more a narrative, facts seem not matter in this crowd.

I guess by definition then if someone dies, and I noticed that crest was used for 39 years, and another academic wrote back then that toothpaste caused cancer. It must have been the toothpaste. Interesting logic brought here.

I’ll ask again, do you know anything about alleged deaths, dosing for treatment, etc Associated with treatment with vioxx. You seem pretty firm in your knowledge, or narrative?

What was your role at Merck?

I don’t personally know anyone who is alleged to have died from Vioxx, or anything about the dosing.

Are the reports of internal Merck communications about the Vioxx dangers false?

EDITED - to try to be less argumentative

 

[Fatcamp]

Why do you think that 300 million people need or even want someone giving them diet recommendations? If folks won't follow even the simplest concept of "everything in moderation", would anyone really expect them to follow any other recommendations? Eating is one of the most basic activities under free will. But then again........so is "choosing" whether to take medications or not.

LOL. That's not a debate I have any time for. In general I would say that shared information is the hallmark of a modern society, but wtf do I know.

 

[Marbles]

I worked there.

So, share the data you have. Or, perhaps share why that data was not released if you are prohibited from sharing the actual data.

Websites listed above as facts. an author as your source. seems more a narrative, facts seem not matter in this crowd.

Give your facts? What data says it is safe? Applying the precautionary principal to everything is BS. However, once there is a signal of harm in the data, the risk benefit balance changes. Vioxx treats pain, but does not alter disease, so the benefit is already low, making the acceptable level of risk low as well.

I guess by definition then if someone dies, and I noticed that crest was used for 39 years, and another academic wrote back then that toothpaste caused cancer. It must have been the toothpaste. Interesting logic brought here.

Trying to compare one person to a large sample is misleading at best. Similarly, asking someone to prove the deaths is to ask for an impossibility. Proof would be considered a high quality RCT (but of course science never proves anything, it only fails to disprove). Carrying out an RCT to see how many people are harmed by the intervention is unethical. Keep in mind, to be proof, it must be a primary outcome of the RCT, secondary outcomes are not strong enough. Asking for what will not be obtained is unfair. However, if you can provide proof that Vioxx never hurt anyone, then I will consider your point valid.

A better question, is it reasonable to expect the risk to have been detected before bringing the drug to market? I.e. is there evidence of negligence or malice? Without evidence of one of those, criticism of a pharmaceutical company in such cases is asking for cristal ball predictions, which is impossible and thus utter BS.

 

[5MilesBack]

In general I would say that shared information is the hallmark of a modern society, but wtf do I know.

We can "share" that smoking obviously causes damage to the lungs, pot makes folks dumber than rocks, wearing a seat belt can protect you in a crash, taking opioids that you bought on the street can kill you, and eating Tide Pods is an idiotic move.......but people are going to do what people are going to do regardless of the recommendations. People need to take responsibility for THEIR OWN choices.

 

[bdan68]

Why do you think that 300 million people need or even want someone giving them diet recommendations? If folks won't follow even the simplest concept of "everything in moderation", would anyone really expect them to follow any other recommendations? Eating is one of the most basic activities under free will. But then again........so is "choosing" whether to take medications or not.

But, the "everything in moderation" is bad advice.

 

[WRM]

Heck, Docs didn't even get "take aspirin to reduce your chance of heart attack" right. All those years they told us to do it--now it's wrong!

Remember when you were supposed to eat margarine and never even look at butter?

 

[WRM]

The red meat thing makes me laugh. Do they not realize that besides chickens, some fish, and some upland birds, everything is red meat? Never mind the processed foods and vegetable oils just like you said. People have lived off and maintained a healthy lifestyle for thousands of years off red meat, I wont be stopping either.

Well.....I love red meat / wild game, but I'm an O blood type. My wife and mom are both As, and red meat really messes with their digestive systems. They basically realized that before reading the Blood Type Diet, but it was revelatory to them to see that it was highly recommended to avoid it (along with many other things they already knew caused them digestive issues). My wife has the added bonus of no gallbladder, so really anything at all fatty is tough for her. Type Os are highly recommended to eat red meat, thankfully, thought I don't eat as much of it now as I did when younger. Still love it tho.

 

[Marbles]

Heck, Docs didn't even get "take aspirin to reduce your chance of heart attack" right. All those years they told us to do it--now it's wrong!

Aspirin does reduce your risk of an MI (and thus no one got it wrong). However, it increases your risk of bleeding more than was initially believed, and thus is not completely safe. As such, if you have a low risk of MI, there is unlikely to be a net benefit to taking it.

At least understand a subject before running your mouth.

By the way, blood type has as much to do with diet as eye color. I have blue eyes, which I why I can eat a tone of red meat even though I'm type A. You really need to be up to date on this stuff. D'adamo is too interested in selling his books to admit he failed to account for something as massive as eye color in his approach.

 

[fwafwow]

A better question, is it reasonable to expect the risk to have been detected before bringing the drug to market? I.e. is there evidence of negligence or malice? Without evidence of one of those, criticism of a pharmaceutical company in such cases is asking for cristal ball predictions, which is impossible and thus utter BS.

According to this book (and other sources), there is said to have been knowledge within Merck of the risks of Vioxx, and that knowledge was not made available (that’s a generous summary of what has been written on the topic). But I admit I can’t prove that since I only read about it.

 

[cornfedkiller]

By the way, blood type has as much to do with diet as eye color. I have blue eyes, which I why I can eat a tone of red meat even though I'm type A. You really need to be up to date on this stuff. D'adamo is too interested in selling his books to admit he failed to account for something as massive as eye color in his approach.

 

[fwafwow]

View attachment 405443

I was thinking the other day we may need a meme intervention.

@Marbles - what about those of us with green eyes?

 

[Marbles]

@Marbles - what about those of us with green eyes?

You need to eat lots of green vegetables with some purple and read mixed in. Avoid red meat, unless you have type O+ blood. Though even with O+ you need to make sure it is lean red meat.

 

[fwafwow]

You need to eat lots of green vegetables with some purple and read mixed in. Avoid red meat, unless you have type O+ blood. Though even with O+ you need to make sure it is lean red meat.

That’s good and bad news. Nutritionist at the PCP today told me I’ve lost weight (fat) overall, but my adipose fat rose 0.3 liters. Damnit! We she recommended more (some) fiber and I coincidentally just ate an entire bag of frozen broccoli. I topped the greens with ham, which was more of a pinkish color, but I know pork is the other white meat, so I’m good.

Don’t know my blood type - well, I knew, but have forgotten. Prolly should try to remember that going forward.

 

[WRM]

Aspirin does reduce your risk of an MI (and thus no one got it wrong). However, it increases your risk of bleeding more than was initially believed, and thus is not completely safe. As such, if you have a low risk of MI, there is unlikely to be a net benefit to taking it.

At least understand a subject before running your mouth.

By the way, blood type has as much to do with diet as eye color. I have blue eyes, which I why I can eat a tone of red meat even though I'm type A. You really need to be up to date on this stuff. D'adamo is too interested in selling his books to admit he failed to account for something as massive as eye color in his approach.

More than "initially believed". Yuhp, still "practicing medicine". IMO, docs are, by and large, quacks--paying for second and third houses and spouses, constant new cars and toys for them and the trove of kids and newest model spouse. They don't spend any time with patients. No use for them.

Blood type diet had some good info for me. Never said I was militant on it. YMMV.

But, always glad to know we have experts like you aboard.

 

[5MilesBack]

But, the "everything in moderation" is bad advice.

Says who.......the so-called experts?

 

[bdan68]

Says who.......the so-called experts?

Me