Should this work?

[Inconstancy]

So I recently picked up my recurve after several years of not shooting. Initially I wasn't much concerned about accuracy as I was just trying to regain form and function so any arrow worked. But after a few weeks of regaining shoulder strength(sort of) and form, I started searching for a carbon arrow that'd fly...well straight as an arrow. I'm drawing 51 lbs at a true 29 inches. I bought a few GT500's cut to 29 1/2 as well as a few 400's of the same length. I didn't front load them initially but after a few rounds it was obvious neither set up was going to work. Went back to the bow shop and added some weight to the inserts which brought total weight up to just over 500 grains and FOC up to 18% and 20%. It helped but neither set up is perfect in my opinion. While at the bow shop a guy offered to let me shoot one of his uncut Warrior 500 carbon arrows. This thing weighs 428 grains, is 32" tip to tip, an FOC just over 11% and flies straighter than any arrow I've ever shot. It literally seems like no matter how imperfect my form gets I'm still hitting a 4" circle inside 25 yds. The only real issue I have with it is the fact it really loses steam past 30 yds or so. Based on the numbers, it seems like this thing would be under spined at this length and the FOC is really low for great flight. So why does this thing fly so darned good? Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[kfili]

Take eveything i say with a grain of salt as I'm only so experienced... i think spine reigns over eveything else. So in other words before TAW or FOC a properly. Spined arrow will fly and impact better. I would think the 400s would be better than 500, but still a little weak for your set up? I don't know anything about the warrior arrows though.

FYI im shooting 500 spine beman centershots, 28in draw, 45lbs and they fly great

 

[Inconstancy]

Take eveything i say with a grain of salt as I'm only so experienced... i think spine reigns over eveything else. So in other words before TAW or FOC a properly. Spined arrow will fly and impact better. I would think the 400s would be better than 500, but still a little weak for your set up? I don't know anything about the warrior arrows though.

FYI im shooting 500 spine beman centershots, 28in draw, 45lbs and they fly great

Actually without extra weight up front the 400s showed quite stiff and the 500s showed a little stiffness as well. I'm with you on the proper spine being most important but without manipulation neither of these arrows flew straight let alone hit where I was looking. Accuracy did improve after front loading but they still don't fly like my aluminums did. Really like the idea of shooting carbon vs aluminum though.

 

[sneaky]

Dynamic spine was what you were witnessing with the full length 500 with the lower FOC. You can make either of your other ones work, but you're gonna have to play with point weight and not just insert weights. What field point weight were you shooting on those two shafts?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[sneaky]

Form also plays a role in how they'll fly. You can have a perfect spined arrow with a poor release and it'll fly bad. Everything has to be in sync.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Inconstancy]

Point weight on the 500s is 125, the 400s is 145. I understand and agree with your comment about form as well. For the most part I feel like my form is solid but naturally as practice rounds lengthen focus can start to lapse a bit. That's generally when the release becomes less automatic and as you noted reflects on arrow flight. Like I said the longer arrow is significantly more forgiving but I really don't like the extra length. Bad enough trying to sneak up on critters toting a 60" piece of wood.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

The proof is in the arrow flight! I'd expect you to need at least 200 grain points on your other 500's to get them flying right out of that setup.

And there's nothing wrong with long arrows. I draw 32" and shoot 33" arrows. I can sneak just as well as most guys.

 

[Inconstancy]

If you're drawing 32" you're no dwarf. Lol. Yeah I've asked myself " If it works why try to fix it?" But mostly just trying to wrap my mind around the physics I suppose. Just to be clear, the "tip" weight is 225 gr on those 500s (125 pt wt + 100 gr insert). In my mind that equals 225 point wt since there is no shaft flex until after the insert. Just me.

 

[North Idaho Stickbow]

If your shooting those long arrows well, then that’s what I’d go with. I wouldn’t take a 30 yard shot at an animal anyway, unless it was a giant elk (huge target) that was totally broadside, on level ground, in perfect conditions.

 

[Inconstancy]

I'm thinking along those lines. Quit asking questions and just go with what works. And I agree 100%, if 30 yds is beyond your capabilities, by all means, don't take the shot.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Just to be clear, the "tip" weight is 225 gr on those 500s (125 pt wt + 100 gr insert). In my mind that equals 225 point wt since there is no shaft flex until after the insert. Just me.

Yes, I would expect 300 grains total to be more in range of tuned for the 500 spine arrow that’s cut down.

 

[Inconstancy]

Thanks for clarification.

 

[Beendare]

Yeah, its all about arrow spine......Why was FOC you primary focus?

Did you know 3 rivers sells a test point kit that goes up to 300gr?

This is a cheap and easy way to dial in your arrow spine.....


_______

 

[Inconstancy]

Yeah, its all about arrow spine......Why was FOC you primary focus?

Did you know 3 rivers sells a test point kit that goes up to 300gr?

This is a cheap and easy way to dial in your arrow spine.....


_______

Thanks for the reply. Actually FOC was never my primary focus. As I stated in my op I bought two different spined arrows based on draw length and bow poundage to see which shot best. Only after discovering that neither flew worth a crap did I start working on FOC. Seemed logical at the time and even now. Yeah I recently became aware of those kits and is actually how I adjusted spine on the 4s and 5s to get to this point. My original question was why does this crazy over lengthed, under spined, low FOC arrow flying so well. Thanks again.

 

[Wrench]

If you have a baseline arrow that flies well, cut .5" add 50 grains and see what happens. You may need to bump that 1/8" one way or another.....but you'll get it right pretty quickly.

Once you know what a 1/2" does for you vs point weight, decide what you want to have up front and go for it.

I personally would want to be in the 5-600 grain range and I'd not worry about foc at all.....because I'll have plenty and arrow flight trumps all.

 

[Inconstancy]

If you have a baseline arrow that flies well, cut .5" add 50 grains and see what happens. You may need to bump that 1/8" one way or another.....but you'll get it right pretty quickly.

Once you know what a 1/2" does for you vs point weight, decide what you want to have up front and go for it.

I personally would want to be in the 5-600 grain range and I'd not worry about foc at all.....because I'll have plenty and arrow flight trumps all.

There in lies the problem. In trying to find a baseline arrow, both 4s and 5s flew pretty bad in my opinion atleast when cut to preferred length. I added enough weight to the front to GET GOOD ARROW FLIGHT. It just so happens that they ended up at 18% and 20% FOC in the process. And again, both the 4s and 5s are weighing in at 505 gr but wouldn't even be close to that without additional weight up front. I agree that arrow flight trumps all but FOC is atleast one of the variables in the equation of good arrow flight. All that said the original question was predicated on understanding why an arrow that shouldn't fly good flies good lol.

 

[sneaky]

If you're drawing 32" you're no dwarf. Lol. Yeah I've asked myself " If it works why try to fix it?" But mostly just trying to wrap my mind around the physics I suppose. Just to be clear, the "tip" weight is 225 gr on those 500s (125 pt wt + 100 gr insert). In my mind that equals 225 point wt since there is no shaft flex until after the insert. Just me.

Doesn't matter, put a 200 gr point on there and try those. Actually, do a 175, then a 200, then a 250. Field points are way cheaper than arrows to try out. 225 total really isn't that much for a trad setup.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[sneaky]

There in lies the problem. In trying to find a baseline arrow, both 4s and 5s flew pretty bad in my opinion atleast when cut to preferred length. I added enough weight to the front to GET GOOD ARROW FLIGHT. It just so happens that they ended up at 18% and 20% FOC in the process. And again, both the 4s and 5s are weighing in at 505 gr but wouldn't even be close to that without additional weight up front. I agree that arrow flight trumps all but FOC is atleast one of the variables in the equation of good arrow flight. All that said the original question was predicated on understanding why an arrow that shouldn't fly good flies good lol.

And we already answered that for you on the other arrow that flies well. Longer shaft=more dynamic spine to work with. You can get away with a lower point weight like that but you're also giving up total arrow weight and penetration. I cut shafts down an 1/8" at a time when bare shafting with carbons to find the sweet spot. Cut from the back and also adjust point weights to get the right setup. Once you get good bare shaft flight you don't need as much feather length on the back to keep good flight.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Inconstancy]

And we already answered that for you on the other arrow that flies well. Longer shaft=more dynamic spine to work with. You can get away with a lower point weight like that but you're also giving up total arrow weight and penetration. I cut shafts down an 1/8" at a time when bare shafting with carbons to find the sweet spot. Cut from the back and also adjust point weights to get the right setup. Once you get good bare shaft flight you don't need as much feather length on the back to keep good flight.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

So at what point do you stop cutting and start adjusting point weights? Otherwise you're changing two variables at once and therefore not knowing which one actually worked. I don't doubt your understanding of the subject so if you were drawing 29" and holding 51 lbs at full draw, what length and spine arrow would you start your tuning process with?

 

[sneaky]

So at what point do you stop cutting and start adjusting point weights? Otherwise you're changing two variables at once and therefore not knowing which one actually worked. I don't doubt your understanding of the subject so if you were drawing 29" and holding 51 lbs at full draw, what length and spine arrow would you start your tuning process with?

A 500 spine, and no, you don't change two things at once. You adjust the length in 1/8" increments, shoot it, watch the bare shaft flight and then adjust point weights. If you want to shoot 400s you are going to need to shoot longer shafts and more point weight. The 500s should be much easier for you to tune. Try different 500s as well, don't get wrapped up in one particular brand or model. Even 500s from different brands or diameters will shoot differently out of the same bow. The center shot of your bow plays into that equation as well. I've had arrows I WANTED to shoot that just wouldn't tune, changed to a different arrow in the same spine and it all came together.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk