Should I buy a longer bag to keep water bottles in when it's below freezing?

[FLH]

Hi all;

I'm 5' 10". 185 lbs.

I have two brand new, tags still on WM bags
- Alpinlite 6'
- Antelope 6' 6"

I realize the bags are different temp ratings. I bought them to see which length would be best. I have a seven day return window on them.

Antelope 6' 6"
A perfect fit lengthwise. My feet don't touch bag bottom and hood fully encloses my head without smooshing the down. I can fit one wide lid Nalgene in the bag bottom. Bottoms of my feet barely graze the bottle. It seems acceptable, at least at home on my XTherm Max pad.

A second Nalgene won't fit below my feet. It will fit on the outside of my right or left ankle. But the entire bottle length makes contact with my ankle area. I imagine it'd become annoying overnight.

6' 6"
Two Nalgenes (again, wide lid) fit below my feet, without my feet touching them. The bag is indeed a little long without the bottles inside. But I can shorten the bag by grabbing both sides and pulling up (towards my chest/head). That probably compresses the down underneath me a little. However, I think my XTherm Max (6.2 R value, IIRC) would negate that.

Did anyone buy a longer bag specifically to put water bottles (or anything else) in?

If you don't put bottles in the bag, does the extra length bother you?

If you bought a "normal" length bag, how do you keep your water from freezing?

Thank you, all.....

Edit: tighten up formatting

 

[rayporter]

in any shelter when the temps are in the 20's all that i have ever done is to cover my water with some piece of gear to keep it from freezing.
below zero and you have to be more aggressive.

 

[FLH]

Thanks, Ray. I'm just a recreational backpacker who's not been in freezing or below freezing temps for a dozen years. When I did winter camp, I always suffered with bottles in my old bag.

Have the itch to winter camp again but with a proper bag. Doing my research now.

 

[Team4LongGun]

I can't say I'd buy a bag specifically for spare room for water, unless I was going to do a bunch of winter camping. As Ray said, there are several other places in pack/covered in jacket or clothes that would keep water from freezing, unless your in single digits or less.

 

[FLH]

Hello Team4LG;

Thank you.

So, single digits = bottle in bag? That's what I did years ago.

 

[Team4LongGun]

I'd say that's a fair rule-I'd be warming that water as well in single digits.

 

[DeerCatcherUT/CO]

When it gets cold enough to freeze my water bottles, I switch to a thermos style water bottle. A little heavier but much cheaper than a new bag. That’s my solution

 

[FLH]

Team4LG: Roger. Never tried heated water. Will do when get chance. TY.

DeerCatcher: I carry two 32 oz Klean Kanteens in warm weather. Empty weight is 20 oz per bottle. Two bottles weigh 40 oz, or 2.5 lbs. That's pretty heavy but ice cold water is worth the weight on hot days.

Winter backpack weighs more than summer, with tent/stove/puffy jacket, pants/etc. Two 32 oz Nalgenes at 12.5 oz total saves 1.75 lbs over two Klean Kanteens at 2.5 lbs total.

GSI makes a 13 oz insulated stainless bottle, though. Those might be a good compromise for freezing weather carry.

MicroLite 1000 Twist Vacuum Insulated Water Bottle | GSI Outdoors

The GSI Outdoors Microlite 1000 Twist insulated vacuum bottle keeps beverages hot for 18 hours and cold for 32 hours, while being 1/3rd lighter and holding 25% more liquid for the same size traditional vacuum bottles.

gsioutdoors.com

 

[valtteri]

I backpack in the winter when it’s cold enough for water freezing easily. My winter bag is longer for storing water in the foot end. I also have electronics there in a small bag. Also any clothes, like socks and such, that I want to keep warm for the morning.

I’m 6’3” and I just bought a 7’ WM Alpinlite. The extra weight brought on by the extra length is neglible and I can have water and electronics there too. Absolutely necessary for a 15-20 degree bag? No.

But what I also use the extra length for is when I’m pushing the temp limit of the bag, I like to crawl all the way inside the bag, like almost totally inside it and cinch up the bag. I get a little bit of extra warmth that way.

In my winter bag I also do this because at -15F or -20F the air is so cold that I will easily get a bit of a sore throat, so I cocoon inside the bag and the air I breathe has been warmed up by the micro climate inside the bag. The down side is that there will be condensation in the bag in the morning, but at least you’ve been warm.

I also kind of feel safer and nicer knowing that I can just totally cover myself in that fluffy down when it gets really cold, even though it isn’t a life/death difference.

I’ve never been bothered by the extra length and sometimes I will just lay in the bag and stretch out and even with the extra length I can almost touch the end of the bag.

I wouldn’t buy a new bag for just the extra length but if buying anyway and I knew I’d be cold camping, I’d get the extra length. Again, not a life/death thing, more like comfort. But then again, I’m not out there to suffer…

 

[FLH]

Valtteri;

Great information. Thank you. Some questions:

How do you keep water from freezing at, say 22 degrees, without putting it in bag bottom?

What is your winter bag?

Do you ever find the extra length a detriment (too unwieldy, foot of bag gets wet from contact with tent, etc)?

 

[DeerCatcherUT/CO]

I carry a 54oz water bottle year round. When it gets cold enough to freeze when I’m hiking around, time to switch to my yeti thermos; also 54 oz. It’s heavier but a longer bag is also heavier. Idk what 2 bottles compared to one bigger bottle weight difference would be. I don’t worry too much about it honestly but I also think it’s worth not having your water freeze on the hill

 

[valtteri]

Valtteri;

Great information. Thank you. Some questions:

How do you keep water from freezing at, say 22 degrees, without putting it in bag bottom?

What is your winter bag?

Do you ever find the extra length a detriment (too unwieldy, foot of bag gets wet from contact with tent, etc)?

When it's clearly freezing, I will just put my water in the bag. It will most likely freeze otherwise. I was just out for a week in 20F weather and had my water bottle on my hip belt. Took maybe two hours for the ice to start forming.

However, I have found that when you are melting snow into water (takes a long time) the ambient temp inside the tent is probably higher than outside, thanks to the stove and your own body heat. When you add that to the fact that if you heat up your water at night so it's hot when you go to bed, it might not freeze during the night even if you leave it outside. Many times I've found that the water I left outside of my bag didn't freeze even though I was sure it was going to be frozen.

In the winter I also only use steel bottles (Klean Kanteen) because even if they freeze, you can just start blasting them on the stove and thaw them. Also if all else fails, you'll still have something you can fill with snow and throw into a fire and get water.

I live in Finland and my winter bag is a Cumulus Teneqa 850 with some overfill. Cumulus is a Polish company, so probably not feasible for you guys over the pond, but they make good stuff and are pretty cheap for what you get.

I've always stayed in floorless shelters during the winter so space is not a concern. However my bags are so long that the sleeping pads are almost not long enough. What I do is just put my pack or some other stuff (spruce bows etc) on the ground to "extend" my pad. But I'm 6'3" and my bags are pretty damn long. Still, it's something to keep in mind.

I would say make sure you can melt water (some steel container and a good stove, I use an MSR Whisperlite with white gas, but at 20F isobutane etc stoves work fine too) and have a good pad and bag, that's most critical. You can cook food, drink and be warm - the rest is the adventure part!

 

[rayporter]

you could make a koozy for the water bottle to add some insulation.

 

[FLH]

valtteri;

Thank you. Been reading the Cumulus site. Pretty impressive bag construction for the Teneqa 850. V shaped baffles. Full length side baffles to prevent down shifting. 30 oz 850FP, Polish down. 2lbs 14 oz. 5F degree comfort rating. -9F limit. $435 USD.

Additionally, Cumulus offers width, fill, length, and down distribution options. Sort of like the old FF bags of 15 years ago.

In your Teneqa 850, are you warm at 5 degrees, with a good R value pad and light/medium weight base layers? Or just "not cold"? What's the coldest you've had it to?

The Teneqa 1000 is listed as -2.2F comfort, -22F limit. 3 lbs 5oz. $535 USD. I wonder how it compares to Western Mountaineering's Kodiak.

Kodiak EU rating (found on WM's FAQ page) is 13F and limit -1F; while WM's "Specification Chart" web page shows a 0F rating for the Kodiak. However, Kodiak users often claim toasty warmth at 0F degrees.

Cumulus accepts returns within 14 days of delivery. But returns must be sent to Poland. If Cumulus were shipped from USA I'd order one to see how it looks, feels, fits. Instead, I'm going with WM.

 

[FLH]

you could make a koozy for the water bottle to add some insulation.

Ray;

Good idea. What has better insulating properties, Reflectix or neoprene?

Thank you

 

[rayporter]

i dont know.i use neoprene because i could sew velcro to it.
i think more folks use reflectix because you can tape it.

 

[sneaky]

I backpack in the winter when it’s cold enough for water freezing easily. My winter bag is longer for storing water in the foot end. I also have electronics there in a small bag. Also any clothes, like socks and such, that I want to keep warm for the morning.

I’m 6’3” and I just bought a 7’ WM Alpinlite. The extra weight brought on by the extra length is neglible and I can have water and electronics there too. Absolutely necessary for a 15-20 degree bag? No.

But what I also use the extra length for is when I’m pushing the temp limit of the bag, I like to crawl all the way inside the bag, like almost totally inside it and cinch up the bag. I get a little bit of extra warmth that way.

In my winter bag I also do this because at -15F or -20F the air is so cold that I will easily get a bit of a sore throat, so I cocoon inside the bag and the air I breathe has been warmed up by the micro climate inside the bag. The down side is that there will be condensation in the bag in the morning, but at least you’ve been warm.

I also kind of feel safer and nicer knowing that I can just totally cover myself in that fluffy down when it gets really cold, even though it isn’t a life/death difference.

I’ve never been bothered by the extra length and sometimes I will just lay in the bag and stretch out and even with the extra length I can almost touch the end of the bag.

I wouldn’t buy a new bag for just the extra length but if buying anyway and I knew I’d be cold camping, I’d get the extra length. Again, not a life/death thing, more like comfort. But then again, I’m not out there to suffer…

Breathing into your bag all night is a good way to ruin the loft of your bag in short order. Wear a balaclava to bed if the cold bothers your face, much better than ruining a perfectly good bag by loading it up with condensation.

 

[FLH]

rayp;

Have no sewing machine. But I have tape. Reflectix wins. Thank you.

 

[sneaky]

Using a double walled bottle to heat water is about the most inefficient thing you could possibly do. Not only do you run the risk of developing a leak in the vacuum walls, but it takes too long and is too inefficient for practical use. Just use a single wall stainless steel bottle for melting snow or heating water.

 

[FLH]

Hi sneaky;

Sounds about right. Double wall vacuum is supposed to prevent heat/cold transfer between inside and outside. Single wall will transfer heat from bottle to bag very well.

Also, if air has somehow got into the vacuum space, then heating the bottle to boil water or melt snow could -in theory- burst/explode the bottle.

The other poster, valtteri, said his throat gets sore from below zero temps, not that his face gets too cold. That's why he breathes inside the bag. I'd try not to do it myself, but I guess it works for our Polish friend, valtteri.

Edited to tighten up. Not like Archie Bell, though.