Shot my 2nd and 3rd ever reloads yesterday!

[HairyScandinavian]

Headed out yesterday and shot my second ever reloads and my third ever reloads. Got some questions and hopefully get some eyes on my brass. 6.5 CM brass doesn't look bad to me but got a weird one, 6 ARC brass is all beat up from the gasser not sure at all about that one.

First thing comes to mind is what the heck is this ring around the base?
Left to right these rows are:
42.5 N555, 43 N555, 42 H4350, 41.5 H4350, and 45 Superformance. Did not shoot the 5th Superformance as bolt felt some resistance closing it. These are all 147 M's.



I think I'll drop the N555, it's slow and doesn't group the best, although it gave me a 5 round with 2.5 SD and 7.5 ES. The 41.5 H4350 gave the best group but had an ES of 72.5 which is nuts but the 42gr gave 19 ES and 7.0 SD over 5 rounds but I think I see more pressure signs on that Hornady brass and I noted a hard bolt lift on shot 4 with it.

I realize these are only 5 rounders. I'm trying to narrow down two loads to load 10 up for a final determination then load a big batch.

Superformance had the best speed with a SD 8.3 and 19.7 ES but that was only over 4 rounds. I know they'll all go up with 10+.

Over all I'm pleased.






For the 6 ARC all my groups look like these, 4 spot on and 1 off to the side. Unfortunately I can't see impacts from the bench so I don't know which shot numbers are off. Could the barrel be heating up or something? These are all 5 shots with 95 TMKs and CFE223, LVR, and Staball Match. LVR seems to always give best speeds and groups with those as well as the 108 M's but I'd really like to get the SBM to shoot for the temp stability.

 

[MallardSX2]

Is that the first time those 6.5 CM have been fired in that rifle?

and

Did you take a picture of the case bases prior to firing?

 

[Sponge]

Regarding the 'ringed' case head, it looks like its from the manufacturing process. To me it looks like the headstamp is stamped over that.

Do you have a headspace comparator gauge? sounds like your last Superformance case may not be sized enough. Also double check your OAL to make sure you arent jamming the lands. I've had similar issues with virgin brass and tight chambers, after figuring out its that, ill shoot em no worries... however I do recommend diagnosing all possible scenarios before doing that.

 

[HairyScandinavian]

Is that the first time those 6.5 CM have been fired in that rifle?

and

Did you take a picture of the case bases prior to firing?

The Hornady is all 1x fired previously but unknown which rifle it shot from. I have a bag of 400+ I used to save brass and sell it then finally recently got into reloading. It could have come from my rifle but could be from two other rifles as well. I didn't take a picture, however I inspected all the cases and didn't note any anomalies and I think I would've noticed that ring. I marked one piece with a sharpie where there was a previous plunger mark, you'll see that one off to the right in the Superformance group.

Regarding the 'ringed' case head, it looks like its from the manufacturing process. To me it looks like the headstamp is stamped over that.

Do you have a headspace comparator gauge? sounds like your last Superformance case may not be sized enough. Also double check your OAL to make sure you arent jamming the lands. I've had similar issues with virgin brass and tight chambers, after figuring out its that, ill shoot em no worries... however I do recommend diagnosing all possible scenarios before doing that.

Sure enough! OAL compared to a "good" round is identical. Case barely sticks out from the gauge compared to a good round as well.

 

[Sponge]

I've never used that type of case gauge, so I may be misstating how to interpret, but I believe the case head should sit below flush of the top, but above flush in the cutout strip - this guy didn't get sized enough.

I would disassemble that one and run it through your sizing die again.

As to COAL, do you know at what length the ogive begins contacting the lands? Its chamber specific, but 2.888" could be getting close. (that's a cool COAL length number tho)

 

[HairyScandinavian]

I've never used that type of case gauge, so I may be misstating how to interpret, but I believe the case head should sit below flush of the top, but above flush in the cutout strip - this guy didn't get sized enough.

I would disassemble that one and run it through your sizing die again.

As to COAL, do you know at what length the ogive begins contacting the lands? Its chamber specific, but 2.888" could be getting close. (that's a cool COAL length number tho)

View attachment 1039165

I believe you're correct, the second picture that's flush shows a "good" round inserted. I'm going to pull this bullet and powder and throw the case away, got 399 more pieces of brass to play with. I did measure the CBTO with a comparator and it was identical to the "good" round so I think it's just the brass shoulder like you said not getting completely sized for some reason.

 

[Axlrod]

The only accurate way to determine pressure, is by bolt lift. If you have heavy bolt lift, you are way over safe pressure.

Your 6.5 Creed loads are over max from the Hornady book. I would only use 1 powder at a time, working up the charge to no more than book max. Starting 10% or so below max, is the right way to do load development. Stopping if you get bolt lift resistance, and dropping down 1 full grain of powder.

I don't worrry about ES, the target is what matters. If the first powder doesn't shoot like you think your gun should, then try another powder. If a bullet doesn't shoot well, trying 2 different powders, I change bullets. You can't make a barrel like a bullet it hates.

 

[HairyScandinavian]

The only accurate way to determine pressure, is by bolt lift. If you have heavy bolt lift, you are way over safe pressure.

Your 6.5 Creed loads are over max from the Hornady book. I would only use 1 powder at a time, working up the charge to no more than book max. Starting 10% or so below max, is the right way to do load development. Stopping if you get bolt lift resistance, and dropping down 1 full grain of powder.

I don't worrry about ES, the target is what matters. If the first powder doesn't shoot like you think your gun should, then try another powder. If a bullet doesn't shoot well, trying 2 different powders, I change bullets. You can't make a barrel like a bullet it hates.

I did note a heavy bolt lift on shot 4 of the 42 H4350, only that one shot but it was pretty darn heavy. Hodgdon data is way higher than Hornady so I previously did a ladder working up and landed around these charges with no heavy/sticky bolt or anything. Thank you though for looking out, I am in fact inexperienced at this and don't want to blow off my face so I won't ignore posts like this.

 

[Sponge]

I believe you're correct, the second picture that's flush shows a "good" round inserted. I'm going to pull this bullet and powder and throw the case away, got 399 more pieces of brass to play with. I did measure the CBTO with a comparator and it was identical to the "good" round so I think it's just the brass shoulder like you said not getting completely sized for some reason.

that's the prudent approach.
You might also check case length once disassembled, if too long it can cause a similar issue as insufficient shoulder bump.

COAL (seating depth) also affects pressure, and the published data will typically be at or around 2.800" for 6.5 CM. Just something to keep in mind if you are seating out longer.

 

[MallardSX2]

Short of that heavy bolt lift, I see nothing that alarms me.

FYI - My browning A-bolt 300WSM with factory Winchester silvertips has heavy bolt lift and primers flatter than a pancake.

I don't worry about it. But, that's me.

 

[streamerfish]

Just to make sure I'm following. Your loads are 2.888 OAL yes? What primers are you using?

I haven't loaded out that long before off the top of my head. On paper your probably around max pressure, shouldn't be largely over. But, if your creeping close to or into the lands/rifling, then your pressure profile changes and you will over pressure.

You can use something to measure and see how close to the lands you are. Or, you can drop your OAL down to around 2.86 or so and see what they do for pressure.

Once you go outside of established parameters (in this case length past 2.825") you have to be careful and studious in what your doing. And, understanding the different things that can affect what's going on.

 

[HairyScandinavian]

So quick question, in a small sample size group of 5 with 4 rounds feeling smooth with no issues and one with heavy bolt lift is that possibly an anomaly and something I should try again or is that just how it works and it's time to back down off of that?

Just to make sure I'm following. Your loads are 2.888 OAL yes? What primers are you using?

I haven't loaded out that long before off the top of my head. On paper your probably around max pressure, shouldn't be largely over. But, if your creeping close to or into the lands/rifling, then your pressure profile changes and you will over pressure.

You can use something to measure and see how close to the lands you are. Or, you can drop your OAL down to around 2.86 or so and see what they do for pressure.

Once you go outside of established parameters (in this case length past 2.825") you have to be careful and studious in what your doing. And, understanding the different things that can affect what's going on.

For sure, good looking out and appreciate the explanation. It's actually 2.880 to 2.881 when I measure them, not that it's much different. Since in the picture the tips aren't touching the calipers due to setting flat on the bench the caliper moved when I set it down and I didn't fix it because I was mainly comparing the two rounds against eachother since one chambers fine and the other felt resistance closing the bolt. I did all my measurements based on CBTO with these projectiles so didn't even document what my COAL was so had to go measure (doh!). I *should* be roughly .040" off the lands.

 

[Sponge]

So quick question, in a small sample size group of 5 with 4 rounds feeling smooth with no issues and one with heavy bolt lift is that possibly an anomaly and something I should try again or is that just how it works and it's time to back down off of that?

I would back down a bit.
It sounds like you have brass that is from different lots, you could have wide variability in case capacity even with the same headstamp, lower case capacity = higher pressure.

Are you trying to meet a velocity goal? If not, coming down 0.5 or 1 grain from your current max may be a good spot to be, especially for your first large batch. Nothing sucks more than feeling uneasy about a whole bunch of handloads, or even worse being in a situation where you feel you need to pull 300-ish loads.

ETA - worth knowing that i tend to stay on the conservative side with my handloads, so thats where that advice comes from

 

[streamerfish]

So quick question, in a small sample size group of 5 with 4 rounds feeling smooth with no issues and one with heavy bolt lift is that possibly an anomaly and something I should try again or is that just how it works and it's time to back down off of that?


For sure, good looking out and appreciate the explanation. It's actually 2.880 to 2.881 when I measure them, not that it's much different. Since in the picture the tips aren't touching the calipers due to setting flat on the bench the caliper moved when I set it down and I didn't fix it because I was mainly comparing the two rounds against eachother since one chambers fine and the other felt resistance closing the bolt. I did all my measurements based on CBTO with these projectiles so didn't even document what my COAL was so had to go measure (doh!). I *should* be roughly .040" off the lands.

If your around 40 thou off the lands then you should be fine there.

And yeah, it could have been an anomaly of some kind on your heavy bolt lift. Like others mentioned, may not have been sized/resized properly.

I really wouldn't expect you to have pressure issues with the loads you have listed at 2.88 COAL, if your that far off the lands. It is a bit dependent on which primer your running also.

 

[streamerfish]

I would back down a bit.
It sounds like you have brass that is from different lots, you could have wide variability in case capacity even with the same headstamp, lower case capacity = higher pressure.

Are you trying to meet a velocity goal? If not, coming down 0.5 or 1 grain from your current max may be a good spot to be, especially for your first large batch. Nothing sucks more than feeling uneasy about a whole bunch of handloads, or even worse being in a situation where you feel you need to pull 300-ish loads.

ETA - worth knowing that i tend to stay on the conservative side with my handloads, so thats where that advice comes from

Yeah, i didn't catch that part. But if your running different lots of brass, even within the same brand, then you can run into some case capacity differences....(usually do anyways).

Again, I wouldn't expect it to make a massive difference, but it can make a difference for sure.

 

[HairyScandinavian]

Thanks yall. I'm not chasing velocity necessarily but wanted to beat factory by a bit and not leave a lot on the table needlessly. The 41.5gr H4350 shot well and didn't have any change in bolt lift so I have no reason to pursue the 42gr, it's not a big difference in FPS on the chrono anyway. I'll burn through about 200 of this brass and maybe some day in the future revisit squeezing out a few more FPS with 2x fire brass that I know was last fired in this rifle and I think I'll just go ahead and toss that case that had the real heavy bolt lift as well in case it's got something going on with lesser case capacity.

 

[mtnbound]

Headed out yesterday and shot my second ever reloads and my third ever reloads. Got some questions and hopefully get some eyes on my brass. 6.5 CM brass doesn't look bad to me but got a weird one, 6 ARC brass is all beat up from the gasser not sure at all about that one.

First thing comes to mind is what the heck is this ring around the base?
Left to right these rows are:
42.5 N555, 43 N555, 42 H4350, 41.5 H4350, and 45 Superformance. Did not shoot the 5th Superformance as bolt felt some resistance closing it. These are all 147 M's.

View attachment 1039109

I think I'll drop the N555, it's slow and doesn't group the best, although it gave me a 5 round with 2.5 SD and 7.5 ES. The 41.5 gave the best group but had an ES of 72.5 which is nuts but the 42gr gave 19 ES and 7.0 SD over 5 rounds but I think I see more pressure signs on that Hornady brass and I noted a hard bolt lift on shot 4 with it.

I realize these are only 5 rounders. I'm trying to narrow down two loads to load 10 up for a final determination then load a big batch.

Superformance had the best speed with a SD 8.3 and 19.7 ES but that was only over 4 rounds. I know they'll all go up with 10+.

Over all I'm pleased.

View attachment 1039113
View attachment 1039114
View attachment 1039115
View attachment 1039116

For the 6 ARC all my groups look like these, 4 spot on and 1 off to the side. Unfortunately I can't see impacts from the bench so I don't know which shot numbers are off. Could the barrel be heating up or something? These are all 5 shots with 95 TMKs and CFE223, LVR, and Staball Match. LVR seems to always give best speeds and groups with those as well as the 108 M's but I'd really like to get the SBM to shoot for the temp stability.

View attachment 1039123

I would just pitch the ringed case and don’t waste time chasing a possible cause, if you had several of them then ok dig into it but with just one it’s a distraction move on.

The N555 I am surprised as with all of my CMs it has always provided the best speed and accuracy. Just because I have experience with N555 I would load to 44gr and retest it.

I have had really good groups with Superformance but poor ES/SD so don’t chase SDs/ESs focus on your group size.

Resistance when closing the bolt for me typically is a result of not setting the primer deep enough but if it feels like it’s flush I mark that case with a sharpie and pitch it when I get home. Again, if I am having the problem with several cases then I would look further but with a sample of one, pitch it and move on.

A gas gun will often beat up cases. If it’s over gassed it’s even worse.

I have not had good luck with the 95s, I just tried the 107s and they are much better.

I run my stuff pretty hard and have not had a barrel warm up enough to cause a flyer like that. Retest with a different bullet and see if it repeats itself.

Not implying you suck because I don’t know your skills but many years ago I convinced myself that there was an issue with one of my rifles. I had someone else who shoots good,shoot the rifle and ammo and prove that the issue was me. That was my first of many “I suck at shooting” moments.

 

[HairyScandinavian]

Not implying you suck because I don’t know your skills but many years ago I convinced myself that there was an issue with one of my rifles. I had someone else who shoots good,shoot the rifle and ammo and prove that the issue was me. That was my first of many “I suck at shooting” moments.

Oh I definitely am not the greatest shooter. I have issues with my eyes and use the parallax adjustment to help, so at 100 yards I'm on infinity. The 6 ARC does not have parallax adjustment so I have to choose between a double-line blurry reticle or a blurry target, almost like everything has a mirror shadow. There's potential that I lost focus and didn't aim the same. Both scopes are 10 power so I'm shooting at center of target rather than a single focal point. Great write up and thank you for taking the time. I've read it a few times over now.

 

[streamerfish]

Thanks yall. I'm not chasing velocity necessarily but wanted to beat factory by a bit and not leave a lot on the table needlessly. The 41.5gr H4350 shot well and didn't have any change in bolt lift so I have no reason to pursue the 42gr, it's not a big difference in FPS on the chrono anyway. I'll burn through about 200 of this brass and maybe some day in the future revisit squeezing out a few more FPS with 2x fire brass that I know was last fired in this rifle and I think I'll just go ahead and toss that case that had the real heavy bolt lift as well in case it's got something going on with lesser case capacity.

H4350 is definitely not the fastest powder to run in the creed. But its still a very good choice.

 

[streamerfish]

I would just pitch the ringed case and don’t waste time chasing a possible cause, if you had several of them then ok dig into it but with just one it’s a distraction move on.

The N555 I am surprised as with all of my CMs it has always provided the best speed and accuracy. Just because I have experience with N555 I would load to 44gr and retest it.

I have had really good groups with Superformance but poor ES/SD so don’t chase SDs/ESs focus on your group size.

Resistance when closing the bolt for me typically is a result of not setting the primer deep enough but if it feels like it’s flush I mark that case with a sharpie and pitch it when I get home. Again, if I am having the problem with several cases then I would look further but with a sample of one, pitch it and move on.

A gas gun will often beat up cases. If it’s over gassed it’s even worse.

I have not had good luck with the 95s, I just tried the 107s and they are much better.

I run my stuff pretty hard and have not had a barrel warm up enough to cause a flyer like that. Retest with a different bullet and see if it repeats itself.

Not implying you suck because I don’t know your skills but many years ago I convinced myself that there was an issue with one of my rifles. I had someone else who shoots good,shoot the rifle and ammo and prove that the issue was me. That was my first of many “I suck at shooting” moments.

Yeah, I usually see a bit more speed with the N555 loads also compared to H4350. But nothing at all wrong with H4350, definitely one of the most popular choices.

I hate I suck at shooting....but its the unfortunate truth lol.