Seek Outside tipis or.....

[Kevin_t]

Kevin, are you stating that your fabric is of the same quality as Kifaru? I watched a video on YouTube of Aron Snyder testing fabrics. I’m assuming the one he put Kifaru’s up against was your fabric. To me it wasn’t even close when it was seen up close under stress. That’s quite a lofty opinion on your part to say yours is of better quality or same when thousands watched that video.

I am saying there is no guarantee that was our tent fabric, and there were no details of how they were sewn, put together or the types of needles used which is important in that sort of test. In fact, if that test was a direct challenge to SO, that would seem to be a hail mary more than anything. What I am saying is that we have tested our current tent material vs many others, using material cut off from as new shelters and in our tests ours faired as well if not better than any others. We also did long term aging and UV exposure tests as well with a lot of different fabrics (and I mean a lot of fabrics).

Thanks

 

[young7.3]

SO cimarron user here. Love that shelter. I can have it set up in less than 5 minutes. Needs one pole, and my favorite part, I don't need to leave my bag in order to pee. Just roll over and let him fly.

 

[Aron Snyder]

Hey everyone, I've been trying to stay out of this as I don't feel it's appropriate for a employee of Kifaru to respond, but I'll throw my two cents in quickly and get back out.

Our fabric is definitely more expensive and without a doubt is the only fabric that can be used for military use that we've gotten approved. Is it worth more money to you guys? That's really up to each individual user.

We also have the option to run any fabric that we would like, but during our testing we found that a less expensive option would lessen the brand. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with our competitors fabric, but there was definitely a difference in durability and long term use in our opinion and testing. As Kevin mentioned above, this is obviously an opinion of the guy who runs Kifaru International, so take it for what it's worth.

Again, we could easily drop the price of our shelters by running a different type of material, but doing that wasn't an option and something I chose not to do. There's roughly a $2.50-4 per yard price difference and that is a savings that we would definitely take up if we could.

So at this point we will keep the American made material that is authorized to be used for military.

If or when we find something that we feel is comprable to what were using now and can be sold to the military at a cheaper price we will definitely opt for that.

Seek outside makes a great product and I have no issue with anything they do. Just wanted to throw my two cents in.

Good luck to everyone this season!

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[ianpadron]

Kifaru is more spendy with less options but the fabric is superior. You could ask William Hanson as well. He makes his own shelters and has handled several fabrics. He has said in a previous post that Kifaru's fabric is better than SO. I'm sure they are both great shelters but I tend to lean the kifaru way every time.

It's not all about the fabric though man.

Stitching, seam orientation, thread/needle type...all of that is WAYYY more important than the fabric itself.

For example, I own a Supertarp from Kifaru...which I absolutely love. I use it A LOT and was pretty bummed when the needle holes started to open up near the trekking pole inserts in front after my 3rd trip with it. For a $300 tarp...that's unacceptable in my opinion. Is it worth sending back? Nah, I just added some more silicone and called it good.

On the other hand, I have a shelter made of 30d silnylon from William Hanson that is sewn like a goddamn tank and has been used more than my Supertarp....yet it literally looks brand new. The hypalon/cordura is sewn more effectively into the design and shows not even the slightest sign of use...aside from the dirt/dust.

I had a Cimarron that survived a night in the North Cascades of WA, stuck on a ridge with sustained winds of 55mph...no problems aside from a snapped trekking pole.

At the end of the day, all these companies are 5 star businesses run by 5 star dudes. Silnylon is a lot more capable than most guys think, especially if it's put together correctly. Anyone with actual experience running both will tell you the same thing.



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[GraveyardNRSE]

I can appreciate that man. Both are great companies.

 

[Sverimerica]

Aside from whatever tests Kevin and Aron have done, it would be interesting to know if any users here have had any out right failures of either fabric.

Has anyone been left high and dry shit outta luck with either company's shelter?

On the idea of only selling to civilians a product that is good enough for military use: why? If I want a car with better traction in snowy conditions, I upgrade from a rear wheel drive hatchback to a SUV or pickup with 4WD, not a tank (though that would be fun).

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[GraveyardNRSE]

Aside from whatever tests Kevin and Aron have done, it would be interesting to know if any users here have had any out right failures of either fabric.

Has anyone been left high and dry shit outta luck with either company's shelter?

On the idea of only selling to civilians a product that is good enough for military use: why? If I want a car with better traction in snowy conditions, I upgrade from a rear wheel drive hatchback to a SUV or pickup with 4WD, not a tank (though that would be fun).

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Have you ever used anything Kifaru before? If you have then you know the quality is of the upmost excellence. Try packing out an elk, moose, bear, etc with a subpar pack and let me know how it goes.

Will you be able to tell a difference when you're out in the back country with either of these shelters? Probably not, but if you're already paying high dollar for a shelter then why not kick out a few extra bills to buy military grade. Furthermore, Aron spends hundreds of nights in the back country so he would know better than anyone else on this site on what's the best quality.

 

[Sverimerica]

Have you ever used anything Kifaru before? If you have then you know the quality is of the upmost excellence. Try packing out an elk, moose, bear, etc with a subpar pack and let me know how it goes.

Will you be able to tell a difference when you're out in the back country with either of these shelters? Probably not, but if you're already paying high dollar for a shelter then why not kick out a few extra bills to buy military grade. Furthermore, Aron spends hundreds of nights in the back country so he would know better than anyone else on this site on what's the best quality.

Yeah, as a matter of fact I have used many kifaru products. And yes, I think the quality is excellent. I have zero issues with their quality. Ignoring packs because well, this is a "sleeping system". I thought my kifaru shelter was impressively well built. Ultimately, I got rid of it because I didnt like the layout. I am still searching for another shelter. All of the kifaru options are damn expensive and that is in part due to their fabric. So their fabric is superior, which may or may not be true, as it seams two upstanding guys (Kevin and Aron) are not in agreement. I dont know either of them, and even though I have spent dozens of hours listening to Aron on podcasts and nearly zero listening to Kevin, neither of them strike me as liars. And yet, pissing matches between roksliders always arise due to 30d silnylon vs. high tenacity mil spec or whatever its called.

So, as I said above, has anyone here been failed by either shelter?

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[Neverenoughhntn]

On the idea of only selling to civilians a product that is good enough for military use: why? If I want a car with better traction in snowy conditions, I upgrade from a rear wheel drive hatchback to a SUV or pickup with 4WD, not a tank (though that would be fun).

Skickat från min G8142 via Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

The reason some of us want/need that “tank”, is because of the places we go. In some instances, if our shelter fails it becomes a matter of life or death. ( I’m not saying that SO doesn’t fall into the “tank” category. But this is why this topic is so frequently debated.)

 

[MT_Wyatt]

Yeah, as a matter of fact I have used many kifaru products. And yes, I think the quality is excellent. I have zero issues with their quality. Ignoring packs because well, this is a "sleeping system". I thought my kifaru shelter was impressively well built. Ultimately, I got rid of it because I didnt like the layout. I am still searching for another shelter. All of the kifaru options are damn expensive and that is in part due to their fabric. So their fabric is superior, which may or may not be true, as it seams two upstanding guys (Kevin and Aron) are not in agreement. I dont know either of them, and even though I have spent dozens of hours listening to Aron on podcasts and nearly zero listening to Kevin, neither of them strike me as liars. And yet, pissing matches between roksliders always arise due to 30d silnylon vs. high tenacity mil spec or whatever its called.

So, as I said above, has anyone here been failed by either shelter?

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I’ve had the Kifaru material fail, but not a shelter - full meat baggie got a small tear (tree branch poked it as I was moving the bag to my pack) that really let go and opened up the side totally when I lifted the baggie up. I didn’t make a fuss and try to warranty it because I think just about anything would have failed in that situation. I was surprised I could wreck something due to the fact it was kifaru. If it was 30d silnylon would it have failed sooner? I have no idea.

Having had products made from both companies I don’t think this is or should be a one vs the other thing, which is doubtful could be resolved on the internet anyways.....the fact BOTH materials AND construction technique are raised as components of overall quality is really what i personally take from this discussion. There was a few things mentioned about how these materials are used to construct shelters - it makes sense those impact how tough the end product is.

 

[Kevin Dill]

I dunno guys. I believe any one of us ought to be smart enough to know that a shelter is evidence that "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". Certainly we want quality materials. We also want overall quality construction and the features which please us. I see GM ads touting the superior strength of steel truck beds. I also see Ford building with aluminum and giving consumers what they want. I haven't ever had a truck bed or tent fabric destruct on me in my lifetime. When I think 'durability' I'm darn sure thinking about way more than basic materials or ingredients. Sure they matter, but how they are used matters far more to me. Give me excellent durability and I'll be fine.

I'll only speak for myself. I trust Seek Outside and Kifaru (and others) to give me the quality and durability I need. I'm not going to buy or avoid one simply because of the fabric used. These companies have 5 Star gear and reputations. I'll be buying from whichever company meets my needs for size, weight, features and price. Durability is a given, and I'm not going to war. I'm going hunting. I own shelters from each of these fine companies and hope to own a few more. I can attest to both. I can't give a durability edge to either. I have more nights in Kifaru than Seek Outside. I will say that I'm extremely impressed with the overall features and accuracy of detailing on the 8-Man Seek Outside tipi I purchased last year. My Kifaru Sawtooth is a proven and trusted mountain home. What a problem to have.

 

[Sverimerica]

I dunno guys. I believe any one of us ought to be smart enough to know that a shelter is evidence that "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". Certainly we want quality materials. We also want overall quality construction and the features which please us. I see GM ads touting the superior strength of steel truck beds. I also see Ford building with aluminum and giving consumers what they want. I haven't ever had a truck bed or tent fabric destruct on me in my lifetime. When I think 'durability' I'm darn sure thinking about way more than basic materials or ingredients. Sure they matter, but how they are used matters far more to me. Give me excellent durability and I'll be fine.

I'll only speak for myself. I trust Seek Outside and Kifaru (and others) to give me the quality and durability I need. I'm not going to buy or avoid one simply because of the fabric used. These companies have 5 Star gear and reputations. I'll be buying from whichever company meets my needs for size, weight, features and price. Durability is a given, and I'm not going to war. I'm going hunting. I own shelters from each of these fine companies and hope to own a few more. I can attest to both. I can't give a durability edge to either. I have more nights in Kifaru than Seek Outside. I will say that I'm extremely impressed with the overall features and accuracy of detailing on the 8-Man Seek Outside tipi I purchased last year. My Kifaru Sawtooth is a proven and trusted mountain home. What a problem to have.

Thanks Kevin. You get right to the heart of what I am driving at: that some seem hell bent on showing which fabric is better blah blah because so and so said. My whole point with the military grade argument is that simply being military grade doesnt make it relevant or better. It might be, but until we see people reporting back that their shelter shit on them at 11,000 feet due specifically to fabric composition, the arguments of which is better due to whatever reason dont make alot of sense.

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[Aron Snyder]

Thanks Kevin. You get right to the heart of what I am driving at: that some seem hell bent on showing which fabric is better blah blah because so and so said. My whole point with the military grade argument is that simply being military grade doesnt make it relevant or better. It might be, but until we see people reporting back that their shelter shit on them at 11,000 feet due specifically to fabric composition, the arguments of which is better due to whatever reason dont make alot of sense.

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Totally understand where you're coming from, but you also need to understand that we use that material because it's Berry amendment compliant and that allows us to sell in large orders to the military.

As I said in my previous post, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with competitors Fabrics, just that our fabric is what the military has deemed acceptable. That doesn't mean that a hunter needs that or that it's the be-all-end-all to shelter material, but it does mean that we are forced to use that because that is what the military has allowed.

It's obvious that both Kifaru and seek outside make great options. We've been in business for many years and seek outside has a huge following as well.

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[Sverimerica]

Totally understand where you're coming from, but you also need to understand that we use that material because it's Berry amendment compliant and that allows us to sell in large orders to the military.

As I said in my previous post, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with competitors Fabrics, just that our fabric is what the military has deemed acceptable. That doesn't mean that a hunter needs that or that it's the be-all-end-all to shelter material, but it does mean that we are forced to use that because that is what the military has allowed.

It's obvious that both Kifaru and seek outside make great options. We've been in business for many years and seek outside has a huge following as well.

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That makes total sense... Easy to forget that you guys are selling to the military all along when most of us on rokslide seem to be so focused on hunting and recreation, such as myself. That puts it into better perspective though as to why in your case mil spec is indeed extremely relevant. I just need a better paying job to stay in the game!

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[Aron Snyder]

That makes total sense... Easy to forget that you guys are selling to the military all along when most of us on rokslide seem to be so focused on hunting and recreation, such as myself. That puts it into better perspective though as to why in your case mil spec is indeed extremely relevant. I just need a better paying job to stay in the game!

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I won't deny that we've been looking very hard at multiple different other options in materials to help drop the price. We've also looked into multiple other sewing options to lower the labor.

We could very easily pick up a different material tomorrow and drop the prices now, but I also have to look at the image of the brand and even though it may not be important to some, the longtime users that have become accustomed to our current material would have a heart attack.

Again, as Kifaru grows we are trying to expand our options as well and some of those options will be diving into the backpacking community.

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[Sverimerica]

I won't deny that we've been looking very hard at multiple different other options in materials to help drop the price. We've also looked into multiple other sewing options to lower the labor.

We could very easily pick up a different material tomorrow and drop the prices now, but I also have to look at the image of the brand and even though it may not be important to some, the longtime users that have become accustomed to our current material would have a heart attack.

Again, as Kifaru grows we are trying to expand our options as well and some of those options will be diving into the backpacking community.

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Absolutely. I am not trying to knock you guys for your prices, just that for a small timer like me, I cant hang. And from the outside consumer stand point, I agree that you guys will get way to much shit if you switched to a different fabric, even if it would work perfect for 99% of peoples uses. Kifaru has the reputation of rhino tough, and I think its well deserved. The price just is what it is, and no one expects you guys to lose money. Excited to see how things develop on the shelter front. Let me take this chance to say I hope someday you guys make a flat tarp, 9x9 ish with ample tieouts. Even though I have bitched about the price of that fabric, it made an impression on me. Cheers.

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[Kevin Dill]

I'd like to thank both companies for keeping me conflicted about what to buy. That's a great problem to have, and it's good to know there's no bad or wrong choice. Healthy competition is a win for the consumer.

 

[Trial153]

Now that is stettled maybe that one individual that interjects the Superiority arguement into every shelther tread can tone it dowm a notch or three.

 

[Aron Snyder]

Now that is stettled maybe that one individual that interjects the Superiority arguement into every shelther tread can tone it dowm a notch or three.

Give me a call 720-937-1418

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[Trial153]

Give me a call 720-937-1418

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