Scope mounting loctite or not?

[omicron1792]

Dude read the question I asked him above about the unknownmunitions rings that he helped test before they came to production. I’d consider unknownmunitions to be on the upper tier of quality rings and they literally go against what your “major” manufacturers recommend because they legit tested before releasing.

I’m not usually the first person to come stroke the guy off on these debates but he’s got some great knowledge.

And I love hearing it. Just not the attitude with it.

 

[atmat]

Nah. He was being a jerk and you know it.

He spouted a lot of opinion like it was fact. And it wasn’t. Stating one stastic of loctite with a bunch of opinion doesn’t make the whole thing correct.

This place is awesome. Love it. Didn’t love a moderator acting condescending while telling us his personal experience (the very very worst form of evidence) overruled me, gunsmiths, every major scope manufacturer, Talley, warne, and everyone else. Go back and read it and you’ll probably see how high horse it was

And. It’s a message board. I’m fine. So are you. We will all be fine.

Just to clarify: he’s not a moderator, despite what his name says.

He was given moderator privileges so that he can manage the scope drop testing sub that he writes.

Also, Form’s style isn’t for everyone. He’s direct, short, and tends to know his stuff as is relates to shooting. That can rub some folks the wrong way. But I will tell you that in talking to him privately, he’s a good dude who loves to help.

Ironically, I actually argued with him about something related to shooting when I first joined Rokslide; and lo and behold, he was right and I was wrong.

 

[Choupique]

Do I smell a market for hydraulic scope ring stud tensioners??? Jackbolt tensioning nuts for scope ring studs?

This whole thing has always been stupid to me. Make it all with the means to pin the base to the rifle, the ring to the base, and the scope to the ring. Everything would have to be square, nothing could come lose, nothing could go in the wrong spot.

It's always pissed me off that rifles are not built as a total package from the stock to the glass. I get a rifle, with no sights at all, have to go cobble together a bunch of crap from 3 or 4 other vendors and put it all together in a homemade rifle vise. No good faces to put a machinest level on or a real straight edge to make sure everything is true. Do all that crap in the CNC when the reciever is getting cut and we don't have to talk about this.

The reality is most of this stuff is made like absolute crap, the rifles included. They are all banking on the people never doing anything to figure it out. I do a lot of precision work with large machines. My rings and bases get loctite 242 on them, screws and the mating surfaces. I also put a dab on the top and bottom of the scope tube before it goes in the rings. No issues with air rifles (very hard on mounts), 338 win mags, or anything in between that wasn't a broken scope.

 

[Jpsmith1]

name one reason besides it being harder to take off and the fact that it is wet torque (neither of which are a valid reason at all in this application, in my opinion)

This is rhetorical. But if you can think of one, it would benefit the conversation

I'm gonna speculate a little here.

Name one reason manufacturers don't recommend loctite.

That reason is red loctite.

Natty Bumpo, Jimbo and Jethro all go down the local hardware store to get loctite.

"I gots me a screw I ain't never want ta comes loose"

Clerk hands em a tube of red loctite.

Then, someone calls the manufacturer when the screw head strips on disassembly

 

[Macintosh]

This is true. By and large, most people that are relatively intelligent, still do stupid stuff because they dont know what and when it matters. Manufacturers, in good faith, are trying to idiot-proof their products, and in so doing, they routinely recommend practices that are “acceptable” but arent “best” in any way… they are merely “least likely to spawn an idiot moment”. Those two things are not the same, not by a long shot. And when you call or email any company you virtually never hear back from someone who has the depth of knowledge to actually understand the answer and its limitations, you 99.9% of the time hear back from a customer service person who has been trained to answer the question based only on what they are instructed to tell people.

Also, confirmation bias is a thing.

 

[ndsportsman]

Wow guys, didn't realize the difference of opinions on the matter! The only reason I started the thread was I recently took a rifle to be cut and threaded for a suppressor. The gunsmith needed to remove my Talley lower rings from the receiver. Upon picking up the rifle after completion, I asked if he used blue Loctite on the screws going into the receiver while reattaching the ring bases. Thats when I was told its not recommended, so he didn't. I have always in the past used blue Loctite just on the base/receiver screws, and never had an issue. Didn't mean to fire up such debate! I do appreciate all the differences of opinion and suggestions though.

 

[CampSmith]

All this comes down to is do what you think is right. Nobody knows everything and we all have some experience some more than others. I'm my experience hunting and shooting for over 40 years along the way learning what works and doesn't. Believe me I have enough time behind guns over the years to know what works. I personally never used loctite on rings ever. I've mounted literally dozens of scopes on everything from 22's to African big game rifles and never had one come loose. Just because someone does it another way doesn't make it gospel. I've taken scopes off that were on rifles for 30 years without loctite and could barely remove the screws and that old man never had poi shift just wanted new glass. There's also no need for sarcasm and being condescending.

 

[CampSmith]

In the end like Omnicron said this place is great and it's all good. We can come here to agree to disagree and to shoot the shit. Might even learn something along the way. Shake it off and keep moving.

 

[CampSmith]

Wow guys, didn't realize the difference of opinions on the matter! The only reason I started the thread was I recently took a rifle to be cut and threaded for a suppressor. The gunsmith needed to remove my Talley lower rings from the receiver. Upon picking up the rifle after completion, I asked if he used blue Loctite on the screws going into the receiver while reattaching the ring bases. Thats when I was told its not recommended, so he didn't. I have always in the past used blue Loctite just on the base/receiver screws, and never had an issue. Didn't mean to fire up such debate! I do appreciate all the differences of opinion and suggestions though.

You did nothing wrong. You asked a good question. That's what this forum is here for. So keep asking. I think it was a great post and an eye opener.

 

[sndmn11]

Roal

It's ROAL, put some respect on it.

Orange loctite here.

#psemach30evolvehollar

 

[KenLee]

I use blue loctite for practically everything. It's great stuff. Scope mounts, lug nuts, kids toys. EVERYTHING

Like Frank's hot sauce?

 

[Macintosh]

All this comes down to is do what you think is right. Nobody knows everything and we all have some experience some more than others. I'm my experience hunting and shooting for over 40 years along the way learning what works and doesn't. Believe me I have enough time behind guns over the years to know what works. I personally never used loctite on rings ever. I've mounted literally dozens of scopes on everything from 22's to African big game rifles and never had one come loose. Just because someone does it another way doesn't make it gospel. I've taken scopes off that were on rifles for 30 years without loctite and could barely remove the screws and that old man never had poi shift just wanted new glass. There's also no need for sarcasm and being condescending.

Well, yes, but also no. This is sort of what I mean by confirmation bias. You sound like like you have a lot of experience, which is great. I think the trap we all can easily fall into is thinking our own experiences will be universal, and concluding that what has worked for us is likely to be problem-free for others. If theres one thing Ive learned its that nuanced differences that we dont think will be significant sometimes (frequently) create a very different outcome—there’s a LOT of variables when it comes to how different people rattle their stuff loose, or dont. I dont discount your experience at all. However, that leaves me trying to reconcile it with my very different experience—also going on 40 years of tinkering with guns, in which Ive had a pretty consistently different outcome on this topic despite lots of effort to follow manufacturers instructions, use proper equipment, etc. I think its likely we are both right for our given situations. My own takeaway is that its often really hard to draw conclusions for what someone else will experience based on what I experienced, because SOMETHING is often different-enough to cause a totally different result for others. It leaves me with allowing for the full range of outcomes when someone I dont know asks the question, and offering advice based on covering as many of those outcomes as possible, while causing as little harm as possible. If I thought loctite was going to damage something beyond gumming up a few cents worth of screws, I wouldnt recommend it until that person proves it necessary for their use. But if it doesnt cause a legit PROBLEM, then what’s the harm if the result is good whether your “screws are loose” or not? so it becomes my recommendation as the most-likely to be successful way to mount a scope. Ditto with some other topics that come up here—I like the “highly likely to work for everyone” answer over the “has worked for me” answer. In this case, even if its a lot of mounts, its one person and how that 1 person handles and uses their stuff—essentially 1 data point confirmed multiple times. Whats the answer most likely to work for the full range of data points, ie includes the people for whom that DIDNT work? Its not a contest to say that my experience is better or whatever, it may be tied to usage temperature or something not even tied to recoil or vibration or handling. its simply acknowledging that different outcomes are normal and here’s a way that may be overkill for some people, but is very likely to work for everyone regardless of how they’ll use their gun, and I think thats worthwhile if it cuts down on frustration at the range, on a trip, or at a match.

 

[GSPHUNTER]

It's not really big deal. I use it because a guy I know who is was a sniper team leader and now a long distant shooting instructor said he uses it on all his scopes. It's not like using the red loctite, which is a big no no. Blue can't hurt and is just an added step to insure a secure scope mount. I use it in a lot of application. It's a personal preference, use it or don't.

 

[omicron1792]

Well, yes, but also no. This is sort of what I mean by confirmation bias. You sound like like you have a lot of experience, which is great. I think the trap we all can easily fall into is thinking our own experiences will be universal, and concluding that what has worked for us is likely to be problem-free for others. If theres one thing Ive learned its that nuanced differences that we dont think will be significant sometimes (frequently) create a very different outcome—there’s a LOT of variables when it comes to how different people rattle their stuff loose, or dont. I dont discount your experience at all. However, that leaves me trying to reconcile it with my very different experience—also going on 40 years of tinkering with guns, in which Ive had a pretty consistently different outcome on this topic despite lots of effort to follow manufacturers instructions, use proper equipment, etc. I think it’s likely we are both right for our given situations. My own takeaway is that it’s often really hard to draw conclusions for what someone else will experience based on what I experienced, because SOMETHING is often different-enough to cause a totally different result for others. It leaves me with allowing for the full range of outcomes when someone I dont know asks the question, and offering advice based on covering as many of those outcomes as possible, while causing as little harm as possible. If I thought loctite was going to damage something beyond gumming up a few cents worth of screws, I wouldnt recommend it until that person proves it necessary for their use. But if it doesnt cause a legit PROBLEM, then what’s the harm if the result is good whether your “screws are loose” or not? so it becomes my recommendation as the most-likely to be successful way to mount a scope. Ditto with some other topics that come up here—I like the “highly likely to work for everyone” answer over the “has worked for me” answer. In this case, even if its a lot of mounts, its one person and how that 1 person handles and uses their stuff—essentially 1 data point confirmed multiple times. Whats the answer most likely to work for the full range of data points, ie includes the people for whom

Well, yes, but also no. This is sort of what I mean by confirmation bias. You sound like like you have a lot of experience, which is great. I think the trap we all can easily fall into is thinking our own experiences will be universal, and concluding that what has worked for us is likely to be problem-free for others. If theres one thing Ive learned its that nuanced differences that we dont think will be significant sometimes (frequently) create a very different outcome—there’s a LOT of variables when it comes to how different people rattle their stuff loose, or dont. I dont discount your experience at all. However, that leaves me trying to reconcile it with my very different experience—also going on 40 years of tinkering with guns, in which Ive had a pretty consistently different outcome on this topic despite lots of effort to follow manufacturers instructions, use proper equipment, etc. I think it’s likely we are both right for our given situations. My own takeaway is that it’s often really hard to draw conclusions for what someone else will experience based on what I experienced, because SOMETHING is often different-enough to cause a totally different result for others. It leaves me with allowing for the full range of outcomes when someone I dont know asks the question, and offering advice based on covering as many of those outcomes as possible, while causing as little harm as possible. If I thought loctite was going to damage something beyond gumming up a few cents worth of screws, I wouldnt recommend it until that person proves it necessary for their use. But if it doesnt cause a legit PROBLEM, then what’s the harm if the result is good whether your “screws are loose” or not? so it becomes my recommendation as the most-likely to be successful way to mount a scope. Ditto with some other topics that come up here—I like the “highly likely to work for everyone” answer over the “has worked for me” answer. In this case, even if its a lot of mounts, its one person and how that 1 person handles and uses their stuff—essentially 1 data point confirmed multiple times. Whats the answer most likely to work for the full range of data points, ie includes the people for whom that DIDNT work? Its not a contest to say that my experience is better or whatever, it may be tied to usage temperature or something not even tied to recoil or vibration or handling. its simply acknowledging that different outcomes are normal and here’s a way that may be overkill for some people, but is very likely to work for everyone regardless of how they’ll use their gun, and I think thats worthwhile if it cuts down on frustration at the range, on a trip, or at a match.

Agree that personal experience is really not a good metric for either side. So throw that out. What is left is manufacturer recommendations. Here is the Warne website. Not only do they say not use, they put it in bold.



I’ve reached out to them for their reasoning. But this isn’t a 50/50 debate. Using thread locker goes against “most” major manufacturer recommendations.

 

[omicron1792]

They then go on and answer the question “but my gunsmith says it’s ok to use” with this.

 

[omicron1792]

They also specifically say don’t use any kind of lubrication or grease because of over tightening. Torque recs for scope screws are dry recommendations.

 

[atmat]

They also specifically say don’t use any kind of lubrication or grease because of over tightening. Torque recs for scope screws are dry recommendations.

And yet don’t their ring screws come with some oil (i.e., lubrication) on them? Do they tell you to remove it? If not, that’s directly counter to their own advice.

Loctite is fine. Warnings from manufacturers are just trying to minimize returns/complaints/litigation.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

moreover - Warne still sells vertically split rings that are known and shown repeatedly to damage scopes. They're a worthless appeal to authority on anything having to do with proper scope mounting.

 

[CampSmith]

Yes I agree that most reputable companies, like Warne, make recommendations because of what works from their testing. For someone to say that no one from these companies has any idea what their talking about is just plain being ignorant. I highly doubt these companies became so successful and lucrative providing bad or unreliable advice on their products. I've been using recommendations from multiple companies over the years and never had an issue.

 

[atmat]

Yes I agree that most reputable companies, like Warne, make recommendations because of what works from their testing. For someone to say that no one from these companies has any idea what their talking about is just plain being ignorant. I highly doubt these companies became so successful and lucrative providing bad or unreliable advice on their products. I've been using recommendations from multiple companies over the years and never had an issue.

But then, read this:

moreover - Warne still sells vertically split rings that are known and shown repeatedly to damage scopes. They're a worthless appeal to authority on anything having to do with proper scope mounting.