Scope level needed?

[solo06]

I'm new to long range hunting, previously keeping hunting shots under 300 yards. I'd like to at least double my range to 600 yards, and 800 yards is probably my ultimate goal. I'm upgrading the scope on my rifle and will be attending a long range hunting course later this spring.

One of the accessories available on the market is a scope level. For a hunting rifle, shooting 600 to 800 yards maximum, is this really needed?

Or, are these just for competition shooting, shooting over 1,000 yards, or trying to squeeze that last 1/16 MOA of accuracy out of your rifle?

I want to have the necessary equipment to make the most out of this long range hunting course, but I don't want to show up with a bunch of "tacticool" junk hanging off my rifle that is really unnecessary for hunting (elk/deer, not prairie dogs) at 600-800 yards.

 

[Sam Millard]

I'm new to long range hunting, previously keeping hunting shots under 300 yards. I'd like to at least double my range to 600 yards, and 800 yards is probably my ultimate goal. I'm upgrading the scope on my rifle and will be attending a long range hunting course later this spring.

One of the accessories available on the market is a scope level. For a hunting rifle, shooting 600 to 800 yards maximum, is this really needed?

Or, are these just for competition shooting, shooting over 1,000 yards, or trying to squeeze that last 1/16 MOA of accuracy out of your rifle?

I want to have the necessary equipment to make the most out of this long range hunting course, but I don't want to show up with a bunch of "tacticool" junk hanging off my rifle that is really unnecessary for hunting (elk/deer, not prairie dogs) at 600-800 yards.

Yes, a level indexed to your reticle is important for long range accuracy. Some would argue that it is not necessary on a long range hunting rifle, but I would argue that a hunting rifle is where it's needed the most. I've taped over my level and shot to test that theory. At the distances you want to shoot, a cant to one side or the other can result in a shot that can hit .5-1.0 MOA left or right, and a little less than that low.

When shooting with a horizontal reference, it's pretty easy to just line the reticle up to match the terrain, but if you set up to take a shot on a slope, it can get tricky. I have shot thousands of rounds at long range from field conditions, and still find myself not believing the level occasionally!

There are plenty of options available, most of them inexpensive and unobtrusive. Nobody, especially your instructor, should think poorly of you showing up with a properly installed level on your rifle.

 

[Clarktar]

I should probably try both for myself, but does anyone lean towards the level being on the rail, or the level being on the scope mount?

 

[Sam Millard]

I should probably try both for myself, but does anyone lean towards the level being on the rail, or the level being on the scope mount?

I've used both, as well as Xtreme Hardcore's ring mounted level, that is machined into the lower corner. They all work, but I prefer the one in the pic. Confirm elevation turret is dialed, level scope, lock bipod, and shoot. I can do it all that way while mounting the scope, ready to shoot.

An added benefit is that the spotter can easily confirm that the shooter is level, regardless of which side they are set up on.

 

[WestDan]

I've used both, as well as Xtreme Hardcore's ring mounted level, that is machined into the lower corner. They all work, but I prefer the one in the pic. Confirm elevation turret is dialed, level scope, lock bipod, and shoot. I can do it all that way while mounting the scope, ready to shoot.

An added benefit is that the spotter can easily confirm that the shooter is level, regardless of which side they are set up on.

sam - looks like you have a one piece base on there for mounting (think that's your 260), do you prefer that over a rail and rings or do you do the same with your 338?

 

[Sam Millard]

sam - looks like you have a one piece base on their for mounting (think that's your 260), do you prefer that over a rail and rings or do you do the same with your 338?

The one on the 260 is a Nightforce Direct Mount. I run a 20 MOA NF rail w/ NF UL rings on the big gun, and Defensive Edge ring/base sets on everything else. They all work well. All of my rifles are built on Rem700s. If I was using a different action, I would use a NF rail/rings, or look into a system like Xtreme Hardcore's.

 

[WestDan]

The one on the 260 is a Nightforce Direct Mount. I run a 20 MOA NF rail w/ NF UL rings on the big gun, and Defensive Edge ring/base sets on everything else. They all work well. All of my rifles are built on Rem700s. If I was using a different action, I would use a NF rail/rings, or look into a system like Xtreme Hardcore's.

thanks sam

 

[solo06]

a cant to one side or the other can result in a shot that can hit .5-1.0 MOA left or right, and a little less than that low.

Thinking about some hypothetical numbers, with a 1-MOA rifle, that produces a 6-inch group at 600 yards. Adding as much as an additional 1 MOA of variability due to unknown rifle cant adds another 6 inches of variability at 600 yards, doubling that total group size to 12 inches. The same math at 800 yards would produce a 16-inch group. Please correct me if this math is wrong.

I know the math above was for a worst case scenario, since shooting a sub-MOA rifle and using a horizontal reference in the terrain (when available) for a level could reduce the error/group size. But, I think it illustrates how bad it could get when you're trying to shoot quickly in an awkward hunting position without a horizontal reference, before you even factor in other variables like wind or additional shooter error under field conditions.

Sounds like I should look into adding a level. Thanks for the guidance!

 

[Sam Millard]

Thinking about some hypothetical numbers, with a 1-MOA rifle, that produces a 6-inch group at 600 yards. Adding as much as an additional 1 MOA of variability due to unknown rifle cant adds another 6 inches of variability at 600 yards, doubling that total group size to 12 inches. The same math at 800 yards would produce a 16-inch group. Please correct me if this math is wrong.

I know the math above was for a worst case scenario, since shooting a sub-MOA rifle and using a horizontal reference in the terrain (when available) for a level could reduce the error/group size. But, I think it illustrates how bad it could get when you're trying to shoot quickly in an awkward hunting position without a horizontal reference, before you even factor in other variables like wind or additional shooter error under field conditions.

Sounds like I should look into adding a level. Thanks for the guidance!

Tolerance stacking, pure and simple. Control everything you can, so the stuff you can't control won't hurt you as bad

Make sure you validate your level with a tall target test! If you need any help, let me know.

 

[rayporter]

to get the scope set i hang a rock on a rope and leave it on the target all the time.

 

[WestDan]

Tolerance stacking, pure and simple. Control everything you can, so the stuff you can't control won't hurt you as bad

Make sure you validate your level with a tall target test! If you need any help, let me know.

Sam - do you bed your nightforce 20 moa bases and lap the nightforce rings?

 

[solo06]

I've taped over my level and shot to test that theory. At the distances you want to shoot, a cant to one side or the other can result in a shot that can hit .5-1.0 MOA left or right, and a little less than that low.

I've been thinking more about this... how extreme did you have to cant your rifle to produce those kinds of results (".5-1.0 MOA left or right")? Are those results occurring as you increase the cant to 1 degree, 2 degrees, 3 degrees, etc., OR, did it take an extreme cant, like 45 degrees to produce those significant results?

I do believe that rifle cant will impact accuracy, but I'm trying to have a better understanding for just how sensitive it is. Thanks!

 

[Broz]

We were out shooting last week at 1120 yards. I was spotting for a friend that was pounding a .5 moa chunck of moss on a vertical flat cliff wall. All of a sudden a shot went 1 moa low and right. I said send another, same spot low and right. When I looked the level had cracked at the clamp where it attaches to the rail. I held the level in place while he got on target and he sent another. Right back on point of aim. Re-affirmed to both of us the importance of a true and plumb reticle.

Jeff

 

[Sam Millard]

I've been thinking more about this... how extreme did you have to cant your rifle to produce those kinds of results (".5-1.0 MOA left or right")? Are those results occurring as you increase the cant to 1 degree, 2 degrees, 3 degrees, etc., OR, did it take an extreme cant, like 45 degrees to produce those significant results?

I do believe that rifle cant will impact accuracy, but I'm trying to have a better understanding for just how sensitive it is. Thanks!

Doesn't take much for the cant to make a difference at long range. You certainly don't need 45 degrees...

Prove it to yourself by hanging a target with a vertical plumb line on it (thick enough to see well at 100 yards). Cant your rifle one way or the other, look through the scope at the vertical stadia above the crosshair intersection, and note how far off the plumb line it is the further away it gets from the center.

 

[solo06]

All of a sudden a shot went 1 moa low and right. I said send another, same spot low and right. When I looked the level had cracked at the clamp where it attaches to the rail.

This is a great example, thanks for sharing this experience! With the cracked level clamp, I'm guessing this incorrect level reading was causing him to unknowingly cant the rifle to get the bubble to level. How much cant would you guess this bad level was causing?

Was it significantly noticeable without the level? Was it like, "yeah, I thought that reticle looked really slanted, but I was trying to trust the level anyway without knowing it was broken," or more like, "wow, without the accuracy deteriorating and discovering the broken level clamp, I couldn't have detected the cant just by looking at the rifle orientation or sight picture that the rifle was actually canted." Just trying to get an idea about how sensitive accuracy is to rifle cant.

Thanks again for sharing your experience with this!

 

[solo06]

Prove it to yourself by hanging a target with a vertical plumb line on it (thick enough to see well at 100 yards). Cant your rifle one way or the other, look through the scope at the vertical stadia above the crosshair intersection, and note how far off the plumb line it is the further away it gets from the center.

Ahhh, this makes perfect sense. Thanks for the illustration!

 

[Broz]

I am not sure what the degree of cant the broken level was encouraging , but it was significant. What I do know for sure is we want to remove all the errors in a long range shot that are within our powers.

Jeff

 

[Forks]

Sam, which NF is that on your 260?

 

[Sam Millard]

Sam, which NF is that on your 260?

NXS 5.5-22x56 w/ NPR1 reticle. It has old school 10 MOA turrets, need to send it in for HS turrets.