Scope Alignment Issue?

[Silveroddo]

Sooo, long story long. I picked up a Weatherby Vanguard in 300 Win mag last fall and put a Nikon 4.5x14 I had laying around on it and it shot well and everything was right in the world. Took it out this fall to shoot it and the scope wouldn't hold a zero. I had a bunch of Cabelas points so I ordered a Leupold VX-Freedom CDS 4x12x50mm. When it came in I realized the tube was to short to use the rings I had so I had to get a cross slot base and medium rings to go with it(Leupold). I mounted it, checked alignment and torqued all the hardware to spec. I'm trying to do more of this stuff myself just to be able to do it and have the understanding. When I went to sight it in it took about a box to get it to 2" high at 100 yards and I ran out of shells and couldn't check it at 200. Today I tried it at 200 and instead of being slightly high at 200, it was 4-5" high at 200.
I double checked zero at 100 and it was still 2" high, I proceeded to drop it 8 clicks and the new zero was dead on at 100. I shot again at 200 and it dropped to 3" high at 200".
I'll upload a few pics of the ammo and the target.
Black Circle is the initial 3 shot group at 200 yards
Red circle is one shot to check 100 yard zero
Green is the adjustment down 8 clicks and a shot at 100 yards
Blue is a shot at 200 to see where things landed.
I was dealing with a cross wind while I was doing it so I'm not as concerned about the windage. Targets were set with a range finder.
I'm guessing I've got a vertical alignment issue and need to double check level with the mounting plate, the action itself, and the rings?
I'm about 2.5 boxes of shells into this so far for the year and just trying to figure out what exactly I have going on before I just blow through another box for the sake of blowing through another box.

 

[Silveroddo]

Target

 

[Silveroddo]

Scope, base, rings

 

[Silveroddo]

Ammo

 

[hereinaz]

You shouldn't be shooting higher at 200 than 100, so something is wonky. Wind shouldn't blow the bullet laterally that far at 100 or 200 if you were aiming at the center. Something seems really off. I can't think of an alignment issue that can make a further shot land higher.

I would shoot at least a 3-5 shot group at 100 and a group at 200. When something is wonky and when I used to try single shots, it seems that I always chased my tail.

 

[Silveroddo]

I’m guessing my windage is off to the left by an inch but the elevation is what’s throwing me off. The scope almost has to be sitting slightly higher than level to make this happen. Probably just going to have to start from zero again and double check the base and mounts.

 

[Hectocotylus]

I’m guessing my windage is off to the left by an inch but the elevation is what’s throwing me off. The scope almost has to be sitting slightly higher than level to make this happen. Probably just going to have to start from zero again and double check the base and mounts.

I chased this type of problem for several years thinking it was me being stupid, my reloads sucked, the vibes were off etc. Changed rings, remounted, did all the things to fix it. The problem was my leupold scope. Switched to a drop tested model and had zero issues after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[hereinaz]

What do you mean by "higher than level"?

My scopes are not level to my barrel when I have a 20 moa base on it, because the scope points downward. That's what I mean by there isn't a vertical alignment issue that would cause a bullet to hit higher at 200 than 100, a bullet is always dropping. I think it is actually impossible to do based on all that I know.

 

[Silveroddo]

Just grasping at straws and trying to figure out a scenario where it’s holding zero but shooting higher at 200 Than 100 yards. Going to have to put a few more rounds through it and probably hit up Leupold.

 

[HuntHarder]

Did you torque the ring caps to the same lbs? Front ring has a lot less gap than the rear. I am guessing that scope is in some kind of bind.

 

[Silveroddo]

I see what you’re saying, they were torqued in the pattern and to the torque on the sheet in the box. 22 or 25 in lbs? I can’t remember off the top of my head. I had put a set of alignment pins in and torqued them and they lined up pretty nicely. Something is clearly off though,

 

[E.Shell]

If the groups are acceptable at both 100 and 200 and the problem is simply that the 200 yard impact is higher than expected, I can think of two things:

1) Parallax error. This will have an effect on impact based on how consistent head position is. Start correcting parallax by adjusting for best focus, then fine tune by slightly moving the head behind the scope and watching for reticle displacement. It is possible for parallax to exist even if the focus is relatively good, especially if the reticle (diopter) focus isn't correct.

2) Shooter position variation. To me, the most likely cause is a change in shoulder pressure between 100 and 200. Are you changing position to change distances? Reducing shoulder pressure will usually result in higher impacts. If the reduction is consistent, acceptable groups are possible if only shooting a few rounds.

 

[Silveroddo]

Parallax had come to mind, this scope does not have a separate adjustment for parallax, and I have a vague understanding of the concept but not enough to know if 3-5” at 200 yards is in the realm of possibilities.
When I did a brief search on my issue I came up with several other forum posts with exactly the same issue. 5” “high” at 200 yards with a 300 win mag. Attached is a diagram someone had posted, I haven’t had a chance to go down the rabbit hole and I don’t know how far down it I will go. I’m mainly just trying to see if I’m missing something obvious here.
Same shooting session, same rest, same targets with a Remington 700 30-06 and an old Nikon 3x9 produced predictable results, 2” high at 100, dead on 200.

 

[Dave C.]

Maybe it's just an optical illusion in the photos but to me it looks like that scope is pointed "down." Not sure if it's the rail(which is higher in the rear), a mismatch of the rings, or if the rear ring needs to be lapped. There is a gap in the rear ring compared to the front which indicates it's not tightened down as much as the front. A down-pointing scope would result in the results you're seeing.

 

[HandgunHTR]

As has been said, a single shot doesn't really give you usable data as there are too many variable that affect the shot to determine which of them is causing the issue. 3-5 shot groups should be used to verify point of impact.

As also mentioned, parallax can do some wonky things. Make sure your focus and parallax are adjusted correctly. Follow the instructions that came with the scope to adjust your focus and parallax.

Something that you didn't mention is how are you shooting? Bench off of sandbags? Bench off of shooting bags? Rear bag and bipod? That may matter if you are significantly changing your position between 100 and 200 yards.

Do you have someone who is a known good shooter of heavier recoiling rifles that can take a few shots to see if they are getting similar results?

 

[Sadie]

I would mechanically center the turrets. Look In a mirror to check optical center for curiosity sake. Get a set of Burris signature rings and offset inserts and pretty well zero the scope with the inserts. This will keep you at mechanical center and the turret adjustments will then work like they are supposed to. If you do this tighten the rings to torque value each time you test fire. Mark orientation of inserts and never have to do it again. A lot to go through but it makes adjustments work properly.

 

[E.Shell]

Maybe it's just an optical illusion in the photos but to me it looks like that scope is pointed "down." Not sure if it's the rail(which is higher in the rear), a mismatch of the rings, or if the rear ring needs to be lapped. There is a gap in the rear ring compared to the front which indicates it's not tightened down as much as the front. A down-pointing scope would result in the results you're seeing.

This "tilted down" thing that keeps popping up has nothing to do with it if the scope will zero at 100 yards, which it will. Once the scope is zeroed, "tilted" is dialed out and no longer matters.

EVERY scope mount base that is "20 moa", 30 moa", etc. creates a downward slope to give your rifle a head start on elevation (makes the rifle shoot high by 20, 30, etc. moa) for long range. This gets dialed out at 100 and provides additional elevation capacity for dialing, but has no measurable effect otherwise.

Don't worry about the "tilt" (slope).

The ring gaps may not be perfectly even (front to back AND side to side), but that is a product of how much one cares about small details that don't matter. The OP stated that everything was torqued to spec.

 

[Marshfly]

It's so interesting watching the people that say an initial 10 shot group wastes ammo spend multiple boxes chasing single shots around a target. Not saying the OP said that, just a comment.

OP. Shoot 10 shots. Find the center of that group. Move your reticle to that spot and fire one shot to verify it moved where you wanted it to.
Go home.
Let the rifle ride in your truck for a week.
Go back to the range and shoot 3 shots to see if your zero moved.
If it did, sell the scope and buy something that works.

 

[wind gypsy]

Also check action screws and barrel contact.