S2H Winter Rifle Course Observations/lessons

[Howler65]

Hestra Tricot are my go to in cold, high desert conditions.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, is there a liner glove, mitt that you would recommend. I have always struggled with my fingers, in fact often times it’s my limiting factor. I have used the surplus wool liner gloves for a long time and this year tried the Black Ovis down over mitts. They helped but I don’t think I would’ve been comfortable in this class with that setup.
My fingers are what concern me most when I consider trips in the conditions of this class.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, there’s a few.


For the general purpose glove- Hestra Deerskin Wool Tricot, or a well fitted pair of deerskin or sheepskin work gloves.
For the mitts, I have used nothing that has worked better than these this past week-




Felt wool liner-


They’re heavier than down mitts, but they are durable and kept my hands perfectly comfortable in -15° F. Leather palm, fleece back hand for wiping your nose, the wool liner breathes and dries well, and the long gauntlets keep snow out and insulate your forearm- which helps greatly with bloodflow to the hands. I will be using these for all cold weather activities.

 

[kswaterfowl]

Anyone try the ndr shooting 223 mags lately? They have 10 rd mags, and they are under $100.

 

[longrangelead]

Alittle late but adding this from the original S2H thread.

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• Firearms

Shoot2Hunt University​

• Thread starterRyan Avery
• Start dateApr 29, 2024

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[IMG alt="longrangelead"]https://forumdata.rokslide.com/file/forumdata/data/avatars/m/21/21934.jpg?1723836045[/IMG]

longrangelead​

FNG​

S2H Winter University

I'll drop this here so all the S2H U stuff is in one thread.

First, we survived!

We got a good dose of winter for the Winter U.
It was 5-10 below zero several days with light snow during the day. We had some heavy snow at night and one night was -25! We did some inside learning that morning!
Everyone did great staying warm and focused on shooting though. After a few days it warmed up to freezing and then sunny and 45 which was really nice for snowshoeing/ skiing up in the hills to shoot.

As far as students, people from all over the country came with skills just as varied. One guy bought his first two rifles for the class. While even very experienced shooters will learn to improve, brand new shooters will skip YEARS of frustration and go straight to success without ingraining bad habits.
It was really cool to see everyone there put ego aside in order to have an open mind and learn regardless of previous skill and experience. Two students were returning students and it showed. Both said it was great doing it again. Like watching a movie twice, you pick up things missed the first time. Overall it was a good group of chill people and we all had a good time.

Form and the other instructor were great. The amount of experience they have is evident immediately. They both take the time to help everyone to make sure everyone is progressing to the next exercise.

The food and accommodations were great. Plenty of amazing food so we could keep the calories up and stay warm.

The fun stuff...
Form had a couple Marshall's for testing, the first UM suppressor and the RokStok Lite proof of concept rifle. Any attempt to get photos resulted in blurred images so Form can elaborate when appropriate.

I think all the new students were shooting RSS 223's with SWFA's or Mavin 1.2's. There were a few small problems, pretty much the usual for having that many rifles firing that many rounds.

I built a RSS 223 to try all the things. no cleaning, quick load dev, UM products, SWFA's, RokStok and other things.
on the coldest morning my fingerprints were freezing on my ammo as I loaded mags. That little bit of frost accumulated around the lugs causing hard extraction after several mags. Just pulling the bolt and wiping the lugs/bolt clean fixed it.
The factory mags gave me intermittent feeding issues, I was able to use a Mamba Mag after the first day which never gave me any problems.
I also swapped the trigger spring for the lighter one which resulted in a AD on the second to last day. fortunately it was the third round as I closed the bolt on a target. I'll be switching back to the factory spring before using it again.
I chose Hornady 73 ELDM's after testing a few bullets and powders. The 77TMK shot slightly better but was significantly more expensive since I bought 2k bullets and I want to save the TMK's for hunting.

I almost didn't go. My first inclination was to work on everything I have to do. I'm glad I decided to go knowing I would be challenged and become a better shooter.
I'm a pretty proficient shooter but as we went through the fundamentals, my groups opened up. I felt it was in my grip but couldn't figure out exactly what. They helped me figure it out and my groups immediately got even tighter than before.
As the exercises progress, consistency is built through repetition. Then repetition builds efficiency and doing things quickly. Part of the field exercises is just getting your mind to think about how to use your gear and/or surroundings to build the position you need for a good shot.

By the end, every person put bullets on target to 750 yards and was quickly smashing things from 400-550yds.

I've been in construction my whole life so feet and inches make sense to me. Out of that I was a MOA guy up until I heard Form explain Mils, quick drop and wind brackets. Mils is so much easier and faster there is literally no reason to use moa. Don't be dumb, just use mils!

To top it off, we did the re-warming drill on the last night. It wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be. It was a valuable experience though. Knowing how to handle the situation ahead of time if it happens might just save your life or someone you're with.

Overall, I can HIGHLY recommend any of the S2H courses for any shooter of any skill level who truly wants to get better.

Invest in yourself!

You are part of your rifle system!

Learn how to maximize your complete system!!

I plan on taking the extended range course as soon as I can.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Anyone try the ndr shooting 223 mags lately? They have 10 rd mags, and they are under $100.

I have not. A bit too early to make a bold statement but my Waters 223 Tikka mags have been without a flaw for around 1,200 rounds so far.

 

[bojangles808]

Well, there’s a few.


For the general purpose glove- Hestra Deerskin Wool Tricot, or a well fitted pair of deerskin or sheepskin work gloves.
For the mitts, I have used nothing that has worked better than these this past week-

View attachment 846197


Felt wool liner-
View attachment 846198

They’re heavier than down mitts, but they are durable and kept my hands perfectly comfortable in -15° F. Leather palm, fleece back hand for wiping your nose, the wool liner breathes and dries well, and the long gauntlets keep snow out and insulate your forearm- which helps greatly with bloodflow to the hands. I will be using these for all cold weather activities.

Have you done a safety manipulation vid or post somewhere ? Or maybe it could be a form Friday topic if ymthats still a thing. Looks like that is something you are rly diligent and something i need to get better at as well as pass on to my 4 yo as we get started with bolt actions. Or maybe I'm over thinking it and it's as simple as bolt closed safety on until time to shoot. Or maybe there's some drills you do too (with the blister as evidence)

 

[2Stamp]

Have you done a safety manipulation vid or post somewhere ? Or maybe it could be a form Friday topic if ymthats still a thing. Looks like that is something you are rly diligent and something i need to get better at as well as pass on to my 4 yo as we get started with bolt actions. Or maybe I'm over thinking it and it's as simple as bolt closed safety on until time to shoot. Or maybe there's some drills you do too (with the blister as evidence)

You're over thinking it and it's that simple.

You could do something as simple as when zeroing, manipulate the safety between each shot.

 

[Shraggs]

Well, there’s a few.


For the general purpose glove- Hestra Deerskin Wool Tricot, or a well fitted pair of deerskin or sheepskin work gloves.
For the mitts, I have used nothing that has worked better than these this past week-

View attachment 846197


Felt wool liner-
View attachment 846198

They’re heavier than down mitts, but they are durable and kept my hands perfectly comfortable in -15° F. Leather palm, fleece back hand for wiping your nose, the wool liner breathes and dries well, and the long gauntlets keep snow out and insulate your forearm- which helps greatly with bloodflow to the hands. I will be using these for all cold weather activities.

I have and use those, aren’t those considered the Air Force mitt? Bought them at a surplus years ago.

I water proofed mine (not the fur/fleece but all the fabric with linseed oil and mineral spirts. Works great with zero loss of breathability.

I’ll try to find a pic - but I do use a rag wool thin glove that’s reasonably warm alone but great inside a mitt in real cold that has hundreds of small rubber dots I can shoot with

 

[prm]

USAF Flyers Arctic mitt.

 

[CBB1]

USAF Flyers Arctic mitt.

What size arctic mitts are you guys? Using most that I find online seem to be medium.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Formidilosus]

What size arctic mitts are you guys? Using most that I find online seem to be medium.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wear large gloves usually- the medium Arctic Flyer Mitts fit well.

 

[Geysermutt]

I’ve done quite a bit of winter camping both with tents and with out by making winter survival shelters. I’ve never done a rewarming drill and I’m interested in everyone's experience using untreated down. Companies that use treated down seem to be the only ones marketing the rewarming drill in their bags, but untreated down still has the natural hydrophobic properties. Was there much of a difference between treated and untreated down in this drill?

 

[svivian]

I have and use those, aren’t those considered the Air Force mitt? Bought them at a surplus years ago.

I water proofed mine (not the fur/fleece but all the fabric with linseed oil and mineral spirts. Works great with zero loss of breathability.

I’ll try to find a pic - but I do use a rag wool thin glove that’s reasonably warm alone but great inside a mitt in real cold that has hundreds of small rubber dots I can shoot with

Amazon.com

Extreme Cold Weather Mittens, USAF Flyers

Buy these durable USAF Flyers Gloves with leather palm and wool pile facing for warmth during Winter activities! Order these extreme cold weather mittens today from Coleman's Military Surplus!

colemans.com

 

[Gstew1930]

Anyone try the ndr shooting 223 mags lately? They have 10 rd mags, and they are under $100.

Ive been testing one. So far no issues. I only have about 300 rounds through it & it has not seen any dirt or dust so we will see

 

[stan_wa]

@Formidilosus I am very interested in the rewarming drill. Is there a reason you keep the wet clothes in and dry them out instead of just taking them off and getting in the sleeping bag dry

Also there is mention of thinner layers drying better so for this drying effort would you advised multiple thin layers over 1 thicker? Assuming the thick layers vs the multiple thin layers have similar warmth values when dry.

 

[Marbles]

@Formidilosus I am very interested in the rewarming drill. Is there a reason you keep the wet clothes in and dry them out instead of just taking them off and getting in the sleeping bag dry

Because if you are not exiting, you will have to put frozen, wet clothes back on and be as bad off as after you fell in (or worse considering the large amount of energy needed to convert ice at 32 F to water at 32 F, you would need more heat for that conversion than to take 32 F water to boiling if I remember my physics's correctly.

Also there is mention of thinner layers drying better so for this drying effort would you advised multiple thin layers over 1 thicker? Assuming the thick layers vs the multiple thin layers have similar warmth values when dry.

Multiple layers are always better in all situations other than walking outside to check the mail. You get significantly more flexibility.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

The class I took in Northern Minnesota years ago taught to remove wet clothing and get inside bag to re-warm. Then stay in bag and make fire to dry clothing.

I’d love to try rewarming with the clothing on inside the bag as well. If making a fire isn’t feasible this seems like the best option.

 

[Marbles]

Because if you are not exiting, you will have to put frozen, wet clothes back on and be as bad off as after you fell in (or worse considering the large amount of energy needed to convert ice at 32 F to water at 32 F, you would need more heat for that conversion than to take 32 F water to boiling if I remember my physics's correctly.

Multiple layers are always better in all situations other than walking outside to check the mail. You get significantly more flexibility.

For water, latent heat of change phase from ice to water is 334 J/g. It is 1 J/g to increase the temp of water by 1 degree C. It is 2264 K/g to vaporize liquid water.

So, I remembered correctly on a technical level (100 J/g to go from 32 F water to 212 F water), but the added energy needed to melt water is small in comparison to vaporization, only adding about 14% to the energy needed to to dry something.

So, significant, but smaller than I was thinking.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus I am very interested in the rewarming drill. Is there a reason you keep the wet clothes in and dry them out instead of just taking them off and getting in the sleeping bag dry

Also there is mention of thinner layers drying better so for this drying effort would you advised multiple thin layers over 1 thicker? Assuming the thick layers vs the multiple thin layers have similar warmth values when dry.

@Marbles right below your post covered the gist of it.

 

[stan_wa]

I can see how if you need to wear those clothes the next day that makes sense, why you try and dry em out