S2H Winter Rifle Course Observations/lessons

[wyosam]

Mukluks are great for extreme cold. Thule only situation that gives me pause is if conditions may also include liquid water (overflow etc). Other options of similar warmth are huge- arctic rated rubber bottom boots (stuff warm by north slope oilfield workers and others outside in extreme temps for long periods) are huge. I have some Baffins that keep my feet warm, but they wouldn’t be much fun in steep country. I shoot a lot in very cold (sub zero) conditions, but most volume is generally at the range. I’ve never had an issue with Tikkas with light springs at the range or while hunting in cold/wet conditions, but that cold/wet volume is much less than a situation like this. I’ll probably go back to factory springs based on this data nonetheless. I have spent a lot of time hunting in real winter, more when I lived in Wyoming than since moving to AK. I can think of 8 late season cows I’ve killed below zero, and a few more close to that. Most of those were solo. Being out all day in sub zero is hard. Periods of high activity (managing sweat) and low activity (staying warm) make it harder. Processing elk way down below zero is tough to protect hands. I’ve found lots of nitrile gloves helps so you can strip them off regularly and put clean/dry hands in warm/dry gloves is huge. In the evening when really cold, it is definitely worth breaking that elk down to where it is ready to pack, then elevating it off the ground (on brush etc). Quartering/deboning frozen elk sucks, as does having quarters frozen to the ground. If you’re in an area where you need/ want to retrieve cervical
Lymph nodes for CWD, don’t leave that for when you come back in the morning unless you want to pack the head back to the truck. Form is dead on with regard to fabrics. Modern/synthetic is great in some cases. Real winter extended time is not one of those cases. Planning/practicing rewarming in a variety of situations and environments may save your life someday. Probably more likely than any tourniquet/medical intervention/bear attack situation. I’ll probably head to the slope next month for a caribou, really looking forward to a winter hunt since most AK stuff happens pretty early in the fall.


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[ztc92]

Can you state what these layers were?

I can’t say I’ve thought of my layering in terms of a rewarming drill. Some layers might do quite well, others not so well.

P.S. Great photos and writeup. Thank you for sharing.

That person was me. I had the good fortune of learning that my mid-layer, a lightly used Kuiu Pelaton 240 Full Zip, was quite water resistant and absorbed very little water despite laying down completely submerged in the creek. I did not have any other layers on outside the pelaton as I usually hike in a base layer and a mid layer to avoid overheating. @Formidilosus seemed very surprised when I got out of the creek and my midlayer was only slightly damp. I’m not aware of any water treatment to this mid layer but it sure seemed to repel water during the test.

 

[ztc92]

Copying over from general S2H page:

“I would echo all the thoughts shared above. I’m one of the fortunate few to have attended the summer course and then more recently the winter course. As mentioned, going a second time and having all the fundamentals down from my first course allowed me to really hit the ground running this time and I got a lot more out of the course that I didn’t pick up my first time through.

I grew up in MN so cold like this is nothing new to me, but even so, it was a great opportunity to try out different gear and see what worked best in frigid conditions. I was very happy to have a good wool sweater, heavy wool base layers and wool glove liners/mittens on the cold days. It was nearly impossible to shoot without gloves in the subzero temps and I froze my thumb accidentally by placing it on the rear tang while shooting. That meant at times we had to shoot with thin gloves and this provided a lot of lessons on why leather gloves allow you to grip the rifle much better than thin synthetic or wool gloves. Finally, we all learned that heavy wool is a bad choice for the rewarming drill and some students actually took their heavy wool sweaters off because they couldn’t get dry while wearing them.

I learned there is definitely a right and wrong way to put on puffy pants (bring the zipper up from the foot, not down from the waist), and this delayed me about 3 minutes in getting through the early stages of the rewarming drill where you don your puffy suit to warm up and preserve body heat. Had it been more cold/windy those 3 minutes may have been the difference between struggling and thriving after a dip in the icy river.

The new prototype for the rokstok lite and UM suppressor made for a badass little package when added to a tikka 223 with a 16” barrel. I had a chance to shoot that rifle a few times and it balanced and pointed to the target very naturally thanks to its light weight and small profile. I’m 6’ tall and thin and despite that the lite felt great. One of the smaller shooters there who stood 5’ 4” mentioned the lite was better than any other rifle they’d used and wanted to take it home with them. The UM suppressor had a deeper tone then many of the usual TI suppressors including the DD LTI and my Scythe. As mentioned, it sounds like the next few prototypes will sound even better.

All told, it was a great week and a great group of people to spend it with. I’m grateful for the opportunity and look forward to more courses in the future!“

A few things I would add after reading all the thoughts shared by @Formidilosus in the initial post:

- Angled spotters suck for spotting shots. It was obvious that those using angled spotters took 5-10x longer to find the target, often delaying their shooter who was waiting on them. It is so unnatural to point them at the target compared to a straight spotter or binos. I will never own an angled spotter after the struggles I saw at the course.

- Spotting in snowy conditions is significantly harder compared to the summer course that was mostly grassy or bare hillsides. Unless you spot the trace, see the glint of the bullet in the sun or the shooter hits the target in a way that is visible (dust from a rock), you’re likely not going to see an impact or a bullet hole in the snow. This became much worse towards twilight and by the end of shooting light many shots were not seen by the spotter at all.

 

[TheM1DoesMyTalking]

Very informative write ups, thanks for sharing the lessons learned!

Did hit rates or overall shooting/hunting effectiveness correlate with the weather conditions at all? I.e. Performance on colder days vs somewhat warmer days or compared to classes last summer?

 

[prm]

That person was me. I had the good fortune of learning that my mid-layer, a lightly used Kuiu Pelaton 240 Full Zip, was quite water resistant and absorbed very little water despite laying down completely submerged in the creek. I did not have any other layers on outside the pelaton as I usually hike in a base layer and a mid layer to avoid overheating. @Formidilosus seemed very surprised when I got out of the creek and my midlayer was only slightly damp. I’m not aware of any water treatment to this mid layer but it sure seemed to repel water during the test.

Thanks. That’s great to hear. I wear a silkweight patagonia base under a 240 Peleton and then add insulation as required using an Arcteryx Atom then a Kifaru Lost Park. I was actually thinking the 240 would be the piece in that system to really absorb water. Though it does have DWR, I assumed (there’s that word….) the inside would absorb water. It remains my single favorite piece of clothing.

 

[rackcity24]

Was the prototype rok-scope in use during this course? @Formidilosus and if it was, how did it do?

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[sndmn11]

Spotting scopes and binos:

15x binoculars dominate in spotting shots for partners, way faster to get on target and easier to see trace/splash/impacts.

Is there a distinct, or any, advantage to binoculars with mil grid like the Maven B5, versus a better viewing optic like a Swarovski NL14?

 

[ResearchinStuff]

To pile on that question, is there a measurable difference between nl14s and meopta 15s for these scenarios?

 

[Formidilosus]

Did hit rates or overall shooting/hunting effectiveness correlate with the weather conditions at all? I.e. Performance on colder days vs somewhat warmer days or compared to classes last summer?

Nope. All about the same. The program is such that there shouldn’t be much variation between classes at the dementia training hours.

If anything this group was better than average at classes.

 

[Formidilosus]

Was the prototype rok-scope in use during this course? @Formidilosus and if it was, how did it do?

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No. It should be in the June classes

 

[Formidilosus]

Is there a distinct, or any, advantage to binoculars with mil grid like the Maven B5, versus a better viewing optic like a Swarovski NL14?

No- mil reticles in binos suck right now. Obscuring your entire FOV with a reticle is counterproductive. An “L” shaped reticle in the lower left of the FOV would be a very good thing.

To pile on that question, is there a measurable difference between nl14s and meopta 15s for these scenarios?

No. On that note, we had a pair of ZeroTech Trace 15x56mm’s that were very solid. They’re the only non Swaro/Leica/Meopta 15’s that have seen that were worth using.

 

[Formidilosus]

Great AAR. On the mid layers, were any of the grid fleece types or the active insulation types like the Sitka ambient (I can't remember what it's actually called) worn during the rewarming drill?

No Polartec Alpha or similar were used. Alpha Direct (especially without a face fabric) works very well- it and others like it are definitely synthetic layers that are very good.
There were several grid fleeces. Basically the thickness of the layer determines how fast it dries.

 

[Formidilosus]

For the rewarming drill I intentionally chose marginal gear for the sake of finding out.

I almost did it in blue jeans, Form suggested I use a synthetic pant which I borrowed from him, no base layer.

Torso was a cotton tee, 250wt merino long sleeve.

After getting wet, my puff layer was a $50 Amazon puff pant and a 4 year old Sitka jacket.

sleeping bag was a really old zero degree synthetic bag.

I never got cold or to the point of shivering. I was just starting to dry out when we called at about 4 hrs.

at 30-35 degrees, it was fine, I would probably have been dry by morning.
At or below zero in a real emergency it may have been a serious situation as my down and bag were 90% wetted out.

In reality, my thought process is if I'm hunting from a teepee in weather that could cause hypothermia either from water, or simply exposure, I have my wood stove along. I would also have better down puffys and bag.
After the exercise, I think I would crawl in my bag until good and warm, then light the stove and speed things up.

I understand things don't always go per plan, A plan is better than no plan though.

I did learn I need to change my layers though, specifically base layer.

Before you give me crap for the Amazon down pants, there are items I use at times because they are CHEAP, therefore I don't care if they get trashed in one hunt or one season.

I'm willing to do it again...for science...

Haha. I walk out and ‘dis MF’er is standing there in jeans and cotton…. I just shake my head and highly suggest he swap pants. Having said that, I have little doubt in these temps that he would have been just fine.

 

[Formidilosus]

This can be an issue if someone sets a hot can with a lot of rounds on it in the snow, either inadvertently or in trying to cool it off. The rapid cooling of the suppressor wall shrinks that metal faster than the internal fouling adhered to it, popping it off. Had it happen to me in doing some high-volume full-auto testing. Caused a baffle strike that killed the can.

We do that everyday when shooting. Haha.

Separately - very happy to see the Marshall doing so well. What is it about its design that you would attribute its reliability to in those conditions?

I’m not entirely sure why it is doing so well in areas that cause issues with Pre 64 M70’s. My guess is that it is because the MRC action and stock are so tightly fitted- there’s no real gap for water to get into the trigger mechanism.

 

[Formidilosus]

Roger doger. I appreciate the input. I'm going to put all my factory trigger springs back in. I can't in good conscience walk around with a rifle that could unexpectedly discharge, even if it's a 1/1,000,000 chance.

Nor would I.

 

[Gstew1930]

What are your thoughts on carrying a second pair of binos in place of a spotter? sounds like thats not a bad route? @Formidilosus

 

[mahonsr]

Appreciate the info shared and “real life” example. I got a little turned around on the midlayer observations. What was in general recommended/observed with regard to the rewarming drill?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

What are your thoughts on carrying a second pair of binos in place of a spotter? sounds like thats not a bad route? @Formidilosus

This is what I’ve done for nearly all my hunts for the last several years. It’s been range finding binos in the chest harness and 15s in the top of pack. Unless I’m on a specific hunt where I have to meet certain animal age class or feature requirements, spotters stay in the truck or jeep.

For the last two months I’ve added in my current guns ballistics profile into my chest harness RF binos and talk about a game changer for a guy who switches guns often. I got by with quick charts/memorization for a long time as I use several cartridges shooting 3-5 days per week… But with the RF binos using current environmentals paired with trued up ballistics on board. Literally range a target and instantly get come up and base 10 wind on demand, I’m much faster when timed now.

 

[Gstew1930]

This is what I’ve done for nearly all my hunts for the last several years. It’s been range finding binos in the chest harness and 15s in the top of pack. Unless I’m on a specific hunt where I have to meet certain animal age class or feature requirements, spotters stay in the truck or jeep.

For the last two months I’ve added in my current guns ballistics profile into my chest harness RF binos and talk about a game changer for a guy who switches guns often. I got by with quick charts/memorization for a long time as I use several cartridges shooting 3-5 days per week… But with the RF binos using current environmentals paired with trued up ballistics on board. Literally range a target and instantly get come up and base 10 wind on demand, I’m much faster when timed now.

this is exactly what i was thinking of doing. i have my revic's in my bino harness. thinking of adding a 15x or 18x pair of binos in the backpack. thank you for the info

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

this is exactly what i was thinking of doing. i have my revic's in my bino harness. thinking of adding a 15x or 18x pair of binos in the backpack. thank you for the info

I actually switched from 15 Swaros to 15 Meoptas and now to 14 NL Pures. IMO none of the current 18 power image offerings are quite there and you sacrifice a ton of FOV.