S2H Winter Rifle Course Observations/lessons

[Formidilosus]

Can you clarify this a bit, Form?

Do your think the light springs themselves are causing the slam fires?

or

Do you think that people who are installing light trigger springs are failing to reinstall the trigger assembly properly and that's what's causing slam fires (i.e., loose trigger assemblies)?

Light springs. Only about half have loose trigger housings.

 

[Antares]

Light springs. Only about half have loose trigger housings.

Appreciate it. Thank you.

 

[Formidilosus]

Appreciate it. Thank you.

No problem sir.

 

[Macintosh]

So where do I get me a set of them caribou hide jacket and pants? And, on the UFS (Universal Fruit Scale), where do they come in? Are we talking watermelon size, or bigger?

 

[2Stamp]

Great AAR. On the mid layers, were any of the grid fleece types or the active insulation types like the Sitka ambient (I can't remember what it's actually called) worn during the rewarming drill?

 

[General RE LEE]

Might as well be on another planet from conditions here in Tennessee during our hunting season.

I’ve actually never killed a deer in the snow. Generally where I hunt, any appreciable snow doesn’t happen till deer season is over.

 

[24valve]

Cross-posted from the S2HU thread, much of this has already been summarized by Form:

"Course was great, shot a lot, learned even more, and ate some delicious food! It was interesting to couple the course with several days of subzero temps and see how equipment, gear, and people did with the cold.

CLOTHING: Puff suits that are easy to access were really helpful, I think only two people there had warm feet the subzero days and they were wearing mukluks, everyone else had more traditional hunting boots. During the subzero days the instructors were kind enough to let us wear thin gloves while shooting, and it was interesting to see how it affected everyone's shooting just having that thin layer between you and the rifle. Leather shined compared to wool gloves for grip on the rifles. Some kind of large over-mitt to put gloved hands in to warm up when not shooting was quite helpful. Someone had a pair of handmade beaver mittens that looked incredibly warm, but no one else could wear them since they were made for her tiny hands.

The rewarming drill really showed us how our layers performed. I had merino base layers and a grid fleece midlayer on when I went in the water and couldn't dry them out by the four hour mark. I will definitely reevaluate my base layers and midlayers after that.

EQUIPMENT: Tikkas did fantastic in the snow firing thousands of rounds with minimal no issues as compared to a couple R700's that couldn't get more than two or a few rounds before having a malfunction. I was running some book max 243 loads without issue until we starting shooting in the snow. With the addition of a little water on rounds, in the action, chamber, etc I would occasionally blow primers which led to the bolt not seating or extracting. So moving forwards I'll stop "getting cute" with my loads and back them off a grain or two.

I had the opportunity to use a rokstok, and it ruined all other rifle stocks for me...

I hadn't paid much attention to suppressor tone until listening to the first UM prototype and all the other cans on the line. Some cans have a far more noticeable "ting", like a tuning fork, and others have less. I'd have to test it, but it also seemed like wrapped cans had less of that ting? From a tone standpoint, the UM prototype was more pleasant to listen to 200 shots a day than others. However, wrapped cans do not warm your frozen fingers up as well as unwrapped after 10 rounds...

Always tape your muzzle!

A rifle got knocked over and the SWFA gen 2 3-15 fell elevation turret down onto a concrete floor and bent the turret. After hitting the turret straight with a hammer and regluing the lower turret portion back on, we shot it and it held zero.

Generous eye relief on spotters is always nice, but is critical and far more important than glass quality when finding the target and spotting for your shooter under time.

We had some battery issues with electronics on the cold, which highlighted the importance of mechanical backups.

Some notes on making sure you equipment is set up properly at home: Someone brought a Tikka that didn't have the recoil lug properly set in the stock, and I used someone's tripod that didn't have a head loctited onto the tripod and it kept coming loose during timed shooting which was fun. A left handed guy brought a left handed rifle, and it wasn't until the second to last day it came out that he was actually right-eye dominant... That being said, he was shooting quite well for using the wrong eye the entire week!"



I forgot a couple things in my original S2HU post:

Good/poor vehicle maintenance and preparedness is highlighted in winter. A rental vehicle that was driven from the airport repeatedly had to be jump started and had no emergency equipment inside such as jumper cables, jump box, tow rope, etc. This is not a reflection on the user as it was a rental, but was a good lesson regardless.

Skis/snowshoes are orders of magnitude better than postholing. Skis are far more efficient than snowshoes. However, we did come across one of the unique situations where skis did not excel: a narrow logging road with several days of foot traffic to pack down the snow that melted and refroze into a slick track by dusk. That snow condition made it difficult to descend on skis like the hok/taos with a loaded pack without picking up too much speed, and turning to bleed off speed was made more difficult by the toe-only bindings, barefoot-style boots (no ankle control), and icy crust on the virgin snow on either edge of the logging road. I think it is possible to descend easily in those conditions with more practice, and am determined to work on that myself.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Might as well be on another planet from conditions here in Tennessee during our hunting season.

I’ve actually never killed a deer in the snow. Generally where I hunt, any appreciable snow doesn’t happen till deer season is over.

You only ever hunt deer in Tennessee? Have you thought about expanding to different species and and locations?

While this is closer to hunting on Hoth from Star Wars compared to where I normally hunt, this type of information is awesome to see.

 

[huntnful]

Great photos, write up, lessons and observations. The guys that attended are studs IMO. Those conditions looked harsh!

 

[longrangelead]

For the rewarming drill I intentionally chose marginal gear for the sake of finding out.

I almost did it in blue jeans, Form suggested I use a synthetic pant which I borrowed from him, no base layer.

Torso was a cotton tee, 250wt merino long sleeve.

After getting wet, my puff layer was a $50 Amazon puff pant and a 4 year old Sitka jacket.

sleeping bag was a really old zero degree synthetic bag.

I never got cold or to the point of shivering. I was just starting to dry out when we called at about 4 hrs.

at 30-35 degrees, it was fine, I would probably have been dry by morning.
At or below zero in a real emergency it may have been a serious situation as my down and bag were 90% wetted out.

In reality, my thought process is if I'm hunting from a teepee in weather that could cause hypothermia either from water, or simply exposure, I have my wood stove along. I would also have better down puffys and bag.
After the exercise, I think I would crawl in my bag until good and warm, then light the stove and speed things up.

I understand things don't always go per plan, A plan is better than no plan though.

I did learn I need to change my layers though, specifically base layer.

Before you give me crap for the Amazon down pants, there are items I use at times because they are CHEAP, therefore I don't care if they get trashed in one hunt or one season.

I'm willing to do it again...for science...

 

[longrangelead]

Can you clarify this a bit, Form?

Do your think the light springs themselves are causing the slam fires?

or

Do you think that people who are installing light trigger springs are failing to reinstall the trigger assembly properly and that's what's causing slam fires (i.e., loose trigger assemblies)?

After experiencing this, I think it is simply spring fatigue. The lighter spring is a noticeably smaller guage wire.
After replacing my spring, everything was assembled with paint pen, then I shot probably 400 rnds trying different bullets, zeroing the scope and testing a couple other things before the Winter course. During the course I shot around 900 rnds and plenty of dry fires.
Up to point of failure, probably 2000+ cycles. after failure, maybe 150 more.
Upon install, I set it at 2lb. After failure I tightened the screw one full turn, as of 5 minutes ago, it is again at 2lb!

I don't know who makes the spring or if it is even meant to replace the Tikka spring. I definitely agree with Form that replacing the factory spring is unnecessary and very likely dangerous.

 

[RockAndSage]

On day 7 one user had a custom 6.5 PRC R700 and a borrowed suppressor that had a carbon chunk fall on the bolt face and stop the bolt lugs from turning when closing the action. In several thousand suppressors that I and my group have seen used for hundreds of thousands of rounds- this is the first time I have seen it with a centerfire rifle (have seen it with Vudoo .22’s).

This can be an issue if someone sets a hot can with a lot of rounds on it in the snow, either inadvertently or in trying to cool it off. The rapid cooling of the suppressor wall shrinks that metal faster than the internal fouling adhered to it, popping it off. Had it happen to me in doing some high-volume full-auto testing. Caused a baffle strike that killed the can.

Separately - very happy to see the Marshall doing so well. What is it about its design that you would attribute its reliability to in those conditions?

 

[Antares]

After experiencing this, I think it is simply spring fatigue. The lighter spring is a noticeably smaller guage wire.
After replacing my spring, everything was assembled with paint pen, then I shot probably 400 rnds trying different bullets, zeroing the scope and testing a couple other things before the Winter course. During the course I shot around 900 rnds and plenty of dry fires.
Up to point of failure, probably 2000+ cycles. after failure, maybe 150 more.
Upon install, I set it at 2lb. After failure I tightened the screw one full turn, as of 5 minutes ago, it is again at 2lb!

I don't know who makes the spring or if it is even meant to replace the Tikka spring. I definitely agree with Form that replacing the factory spring is unnecessary and very likely dangerous.

Roger doger. I appreciate the input. I'm going to put all my factory trigger springs back in. I can't in good conscience walk around with a rifle that could unexpectedly discharge, even if it's a 1/1,000,000 chance.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Roger doger. I appreciate the input. I'm going to put all my factory trigger springs back in. I can't in good conscience walk around with a rifle that could unexpectedly discharge, even if it's a 1/1,000,000 chance.

I did this around a year ago or so. Worth it.

 

[prm]

Rewarming drill observations:

…. (Note: this person had a very good clothing system- his midlayer did not absorb water nearly at all- therefor he dried quickly).


…

Can you state what these layers were?

I can’t say I’ve thought of my layering in terms of a rewarming drill. Some layers might do quite well, others not so well.

P.S. Great photos and writeup. Thank you for sharing.

 

[RS_Non-Res]

By golly that looks like it would have been a butt load of fun 10 years ago.

 

[Okie_Poke]

A lot of info here. Thank you for the very detailed write up and pictures. I generally try to avoid hunting in temps and conditions like that, but I have been caught in subzero and enough snow to matter twice in the mountains. One never knows when it will happen, and I definitely learned something reading this. I’ve never given any thought to how my layers would dry out in an emergency rewarming situation.

 

[Roor]

Interesting observations… thanks for the write up!

 

[HighUintas]

Thanks for the thorough write up, @Formidilosus. Hopefully I get to join this one next year.

You mention 10oz down puffy jacket. Is there anything out there currently you'd recommend, or is there anything coming out soon you can recommend to watch for? I've been waiting on one. I haven't spent hours sitting in -15, but I get cold easily sitting stationary in 0F.

And for those temps ... If you do have a 10oz down parka, how would the grumman pants do? Need more down than those?

 

[Murder Mittens]

Great job with the course @Formidilosus. Living in/operating in subarctic conditions is a skill set that most hunters should experience. Hope you continue the course for years to come.