S2H course - June 2026

[Mtslackcountry]

I have a few reservations based on my understanding of the form-and-shoot-to-hunt method being taught in the course.

First, I currently hunt with a bipod and have spent a significant amount of time practicing with it. I am proficient and fast deploying it from prone, sitting, or kneeling positions and can build a stable shooting position quickly. I practice these positions regularly at the range and through dry-fire at home.

From what I understand, the course places a heavy emphasis on using trekking poles as shooting supports. Personally, I do not like walking around with trekking poles in my hands while hunting. I'm frequently glassing or using OnX with my hands.

When still hunting in thicker timber, tracking animals in the snow, or hunting situations where quick shot opportunities are likely, I want my rifle in my hands and ready to go. I don't want additional equipment to manage, drop, or potentially make noise. Because of that, I have reservations about carrying trekking poles throughout the hunt and relying on them as my primary shooting aid.

Second, I have similar reservations about carrying a dedicated rear bag. Since I always have my pack with me when hunting, I use my backpack as a rear support for prone shots or for sitting or kneeling positions as well. I dont need to shoot off my pack because I run a bipod. I practice with that setup every time I shoot because it reflects how I actually hunt. I don't see much value in carrying an additional rear bag when I already have a piece of equipment with me that serves the same purpose and that I have extensive practice using. I carry my rifle on a Stone Glacier pack using the bottom weapon sling along with a modified slick-sling top strap setup that allows me to deploy the rifle very quickly and put back into the sling without removing my pack. The pack functions as my rifle holder and rear rest. No need for a seperate bag attached to my bag...

Finally, I shoot MOA-based optics and have no plans to switch away from them. My understanding is that much of the wind-calling, corrections, and communication during the course are conducted in mils. While I understand the concepts are transferable, I am curious whether I would feel out of place running MOA scopes because the course is structured in a way that assumes students are using mil-based optics.

Overall, my reservations are less about learning new techniques and more about whether the course is centered around equipment that differs significantly from the way I actually hunt. I could see getting a MIL scope to use during the class. Carrying trekking poles in my hand all day is something I cannot get behind. Was anyone using a bipod throughout the course?

 

[RockAndSage]

Overall, my reservations are less about learning new techniques and more about whether the course is centered around equipment that differs significantly from the way I actually hunt.

Do you think it might be possible that all the things you mention adhering to were methods the instructors may have used in the past, and only discarded after experimentation and finding a more effective approach, over years?

I haven't taken the course, but I have noticed that a lot of people - including myself - get wrapped up at first in the conclusions of where things are now in what is recommended/taught, etc, without understanding that an awful lot of other things were tried extensively. You only notice that over time and digging into a lot of threads going back years, stumbling across bits and pieces of discarded ideas and updated processes, and mentions of past experiences. The best way I can put it, is Form and his S2H colleagues are so far over the horizon from most of us that it's hard at first to realize they're not on another planet - they're just a lot further ahead, on a journey. But without understanding that, a lot of what they say gets experienced as heretical apostasy by those who haven't travelled as far.

 

[Mtslackcountry]

Do you think it might be possible that all the things you mention adhering to were methods the instructors may have used in the past, and only discarded after experimentation and finding a more effective approach, over years?

I haven't taken the course, but I have noticed that a lot of people - including myself - get wrapped up at first in the conclusions of where things are now in what is recommended/taught, etc, without understanding that an awful lot of other things were tried extensively. You only notice that over time and digging into a lot of threads going back years, stumbling across bits and pieces of discarded ideas and updated processes, and mentions of past experiences. The best way I can put it, is Form and his S2H colleagues are so far over the horizon from most of us that it's hard at first to realize they're not on another planet - they're just a lot further ahead, on a journey. But without understanding that, a lot of what they say gets experienced as heretical apostasy by those who haven't travelled as far.

I hear ya and open to new ideas and techniques. But stand firm on not carrying something extra (treking poles) around in my hands all day long. I always have them in my pack for packing meat or if the terrain warrants them. I simply cannot see how when needing to take a quick shot at short range (off hand shots) I have 2 poles and a gun to deal with. To get my gun off my pack I need both hands. To use my binos to glass I need 2 hands. In my opinion its not effecient to be setting down and picking up my trecking poles throughout the day everytime I need 2 hands. If guys are strapping the poles to their bags that adds another issue to the mix as the old school SG 5100 bag I run has no easy way to tightly strap poles to. Not to mention removing them from the bag would be an added step.

Im simply speaking out loud about my reservations and am hoping people will chime in. I have interest in taking the course, live withing 4 hours of the location and the window to sign up for next summer is here.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I hear ya and open to new ideas and techniques. But stand firm on not carrying something extra (treking poles) around in my hands all day long. I always have them in my pack for packing meat or if the terrain warrants them. I simply cannot see how when needing to take a quick shot at short range (off hand shots) I have 2 poles and a gun to deal with. To get my gun off my pack I need both hands. To use my binos to glass I need 2 hands. In my opinion its not effecient to be setting down and picking up my trecking poles throughout the day everytime I need 2 hands. If guys are strapping the poles to their bags that adds another issue to the mix as the old school SG 5100 bag I run has no easy way to tightly strap poles to. Not to mention removing them from the bag would be an added step.

Im simply speaking out loud about my reservations and am hoping people will chime in. I have interest in taking the course, live withing 4 hours of the location and the window to sign up for next summer is here.

There’s more than one right or wrong way to do things, but the course doesn’t teach “gear.” It teaches principles of marksmanship. Those principles assist you in finding and building good supported positions when possible and using good fundamentals of body position when it isn’t. If you apply the principles, then the gear just works better and you shoot better.

I have used a bipod in many situations since I was 15. I never let it become a crutch, but it was always a tool I had at hand. And it is an imperfect tool. It can’t be used all the time. I’ll still probably carry my Spartan javelin lite on my bino harness to have at hand when I don’t wear a backpack. I have a better understanding of its limitations than I did before, but it’s still a useful tool.

If you have sound shooting fundamentals and aren’t gear dependent, then you won’t be that guy trying to set up his tripod on rocky terrain while a perfectly good “rock or something” is right there to form a good front rest. You won’t be the guy who has to use the perfect rear bag for support every time . You might become the guy who only uses his water bottle for a rear support. Or use your bino harness for rear support.

For building a good position, a lightly filled backpack with a Molinator strapped to it provides an alternative front rest that doesn’t torque the rifle and can be used in a lot of terrain. A pair of hiking sticks with hand loops can be strapped to a light pack 90% of the time and, when needed, brought out to build a neutral, front rest to enable a cross-canyon 700-yard seated shot from a steep downhill slope while the backpack provides a rear rest. Or they can be used to create a rear rest while you use a tree branch as a front rest. Or they can be used to support you while you carry that heavy pack up the mountain with your rifle in a carrier. They can be a useful tool to have at hand. That doesn’t mean it’s what I am going to use every time.

PS - I urge you to keep an open mind about “I don’t see myself ever doing it that way.” I felt the same way about a lot of things, but seeing stuff that just works is eye-opening, even if I can’t directly adapt it to my usual hunting. I will probably always carry my rifle in my arms while climbing my mountain and still hunting whitetails, but that doesn’t mean a pair of $65 trekking poles can’t be a useful tool.

 

[TradLife406]

I have a few reservations based on my understanding of the form-and-shoot-to-hunt method being taught in the course.

First, I currently hunt with a bipod and have spent a significant amount of time practicing with it. I am proficient and fast deploying it from prone, sitting, or kneeling positions and can build a stable shooting position quickly. I practice these positions regularly at the range and through dry-fire at home.

From what I understand, the course places a heavy emphasis on using trekking poles as shooting supports. Personally, I do not like walking around with trekking poles in my hands while hunting. I'm frequently glassing or using OnX with my hands.

When still hunting in thicker timber, tracking animals in the snow, or hunting situations where quick shot opportunities are likely, I want my rifle in my hands and ready to go. I don't want additional equipment to manage, drop, or potentially make noise. Because of that, I have reservations about carrying trekking poles throughout the hunt and relying on them as my primary shooting aid.

Second, I have similar reservations about carrying a dedicated rear bag. Since I always have my pack with me when hunting, I use my backpack as a rear support for prone shots or for sitting or kneeling positions as well. I dont need to shoot off my pack because I run a bipod. I practice with that setup every time I shoot because it reflects how I actually hunt. I don't see much value in carrying an additional rear bag when I already have a piece of equipment with me that serves the same purpose and that I have extensive practice using. I carry my rifle on a Stone Glacier pack using the bottom weapon sling along with a modified slick-sling top strap setup that allows me to deploy the rifle very quickly and put back into the sling without removing my pack. The pack functions as my rifle holder and rear rest. No need for a seperate bag attached to my bag...

Finally, I shoot MOA-based optics and have no plans to switch away from them. My understanding is that much of the wind-calling, corrections, and communication during the course are conducted in mils. While I understand the concepts are transferable, I am curious whether I would feel out of place running MOA scopes because the course is structured in a way that assumes students are using mil-based optics.

Overall, my reservations are less about learning new techniques and more about whether the course is centered around equipment that differs significantly from the way I actually hunt. I could see getting a MIL scope to use during the class. Carrying trekking poles in my hand all day is something I cannot get behind. Was anyone using a bipod throughout the course?

I'm a tripod guy. I probably shoot 90% of my animals off a tripod.
Form isn't against them.
He simply states that hey man, you can get tripod accuracy with other methods.
And he says if you're going to use a tripod you need to train with it and make sure the gun will recoil straight back.

If I'm set up in an ambush position and have the time to use a tripod and prone isn't an option I'll probably still opt for a tripod. But I'm going to do a lot of work with using a tripod and my pack or a trekking pole in the back.

Honestly it's kind of refreshing to see someone say you don't need to buy or use x. He kind of takes it back to the basics of rifle shooting.

With this being said after using the Wiser last season I definitely witnessed the issues with this system. There's not a lot of room to add torque.

 

[Macintosh]

@Mtslackcountry if I may offer my perspective—hopefully its helpful. I havent taken the course so appropriate grain of salt. But I have taken a lot of courses or seminars, both professionally and recreationally, that have strong parallels. Its clear that within the US there are massive differences regionally and personally in how people hunt, caused by different animals, different amounts of animals, different terrain, different habitat, different land ownership, and simply different customs. It would be really weird and probably wrong if we all did things the same way. Ultimately It would be really disappointing and surprising to me if I went to a course like this and didnt do BOTH of these things:
1) find a better way to do something
2) decide my way of doing something is better for my situation.

Ive been a relatively high-level instructor in some other stuff—not shooting—but I have yet to meet a good professional instructor of any technical discipline who doesnt make a point to take courses or practice with other new people specifically to challenge their own biases, try new ways of doing things, and adopt what makes sense for themselves. Its called evolution. It’s why the phrase “well-travelled” is more or less synonymous with wisdom, or at least a wide view of whats out there and some insight into its advantages and disadvantages. It’s the same thing that makes top competitors “elite”, just in a non-competitive format. I would not avoid any course because you think they do things differently. On the contrary, I would seek that out and avoid the course that teaches what I already practice.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

If I get a chance to go I will go in 100% open to change all or everything I do.Im not married to any gear or principles.

Question on bino harness.I have some new binos in the mail and need a new harness
Sg seems to be the favorite of the class and curious how it compares to a marsupial.
Why the preference?
My binos are 8x32 and my br4 rangefinder look to be a better fit in marsupial offerings.
Sg bino bag seems a tad big for the 8x32 and the rangefinder pouch seems to be very close.

 

[Livedog]

I used to sight in rifles laying in the bed of my truck, shooting off a backpack. Seemed janky, so I got some bipods like all the cool kids. (I do like them for zeroing.). But kind of funny to see that this course steers you back… to the backpack.

Since “does it apply to me” has come up, I have been wondering: do you guys see this course having much crossover to an east coast whitetail hunter? I’m talking primarily tree stand hunting inside of 200 yds. I would enjoy the learning and practice long distance shooting regardless, but realize the material is oriented around western hunting.

 

[nephewjephew]

I have been wondering: do you guys see this course having much crossover to an east coast whitetail hunter?

If you want to be a better rifleman then this course is for you. Take the skills that you learn and apply to your life/hunting.

 

[dreamingWest]

If I get a chance to go I will go in 100% open to change all or everything I do.Im not married to any gear or principles.

Question on bino harness.I have some new binos in the mail and need a new harness
Sg seems to be the favorite of the class and curious how it compares to a marsupial.
Why the preference?
My binos are 8x32 and my br4 rangefinder look to be a better fit in marsupial offerings.
Sg bino bag seems a tad big for the 8x32 and the rangefinder pouch seems to be very close.

Same.
I've alway used Marsupial and have no complaints with them. I'm minimalistic with by harness. It holds binos, wind indicator if bowhunting, maybe a couple of extra rounds if rifle hunting.

 

[blackhawk219]

Not sure I see a reason to have a ballistic solver in binos or range finder moving forward for hunting distances. Quickdrop and gun number work so well and are often faster that the electronic devices.

I've seen it mentioned multiple times, but can anyone point me to another thread and/or video explaining the quick drop method? I've never heard of it and interested in learning more about (and I don't want to detract this thread too much)

 

[lefthandedasian]

Dang, hearing all of this gets me excited to sign up for this course. Hoping to sign up for next year or the year after. It sounds like a blast and love hearing all of the growth people have had.

Has anyone in this or a previous course used a tikka 6 arc as their trainer? I just had one put together as my do all rifle and have been debating picking up either a 223 or a 6cm as a second rifle. I live in WA so there is a 6mm minimum, but my group consistently draws tags for ID and MT. Wondering if anyone has any insight on what would be the preferred second rifle to bring to the course.

Is anyone using wiser quick sticks in this course or are the trekking pole straps more advantageous some how?

How important is a solid bino adapter for the tripod spotting shots at distance in the wind? Currently using a Field Optics Research Rapid-Release. It does the job, but it definitely doesn't lock the binos down and they have a little wiggle to them even though the tripod head and arca attachment are solid. Bumping them with your nose or the wind will induce a little wiggle which I can see making spotting splash more difficult. Hasn't been a big deal for me spotting game, but just curious.

Is it recommended to bring a tripod and big binos/spotter to glass? Is anyone using Sig Zulu's of higher mag instead? On some back country hunts this year I'm opting to leave my big glass and tripod at home and run some Sig's so if I showed up to class without a tripod would that hinder me in any way?

When you guys adjust the turrets from hunting ammo to practice ammo are you slipping the turrets the difference or are you just mentally adding the difference to the dial amount and keeping track of that?

Do you really need the molinator and jelly fish? I assumed the backpack was your front bag so why do you need a bag on a bag (bag inception?) and is the rear bag actually touching the rifle or is it mainly just a gap filler so you can get a firm hold with your hand?

Thanks for the insight!

 

[jonnyviceroy]

Same.
I've alway used Marsupial and have no complaints with them. I'm minimalistic with by harness. It holds binos, wind indicator if bowhunting, maybe a couple of extra rounds if rifle hunting.

I can’t speak to others, but for me I prefer the SG because it’s lower profile and lighter. It also doesn’t have magnets which interfere with the internal compass on my kestrel, my RF or RF binos. I also have found the shoulder straps are a bit more comfortable for me over a long period of time. I still like my marsupial a lot and use it occasionally archery hunting but at the end of the day I always pick the SG on my rifle hunts.

 

[benconfused]

It’s been discussed elsewhere but the Revics (1st gen’s are popping up used) and Geovid Rs were the two recommended. Other rangefinders and RF Bino combos quickly failed to function in cold weather.

Was anyone running the new Vortex Talons in these classes?

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Since “does it apply to me” has come up, I have been wondering: do you guys see this course having much crossover to an east coast whitetail hunter? I’m talking primarily tree stand hunting inside of 200 yds. I would enjoy the learning and practice long distance shooting regardless, but realize the material is oriented around western hunting.

As someone who primarily hunts Eastern whitetails in the Appalachians, I think so. For me, the habits of thought and action are directly transferrable.

 

[Nine Banger]

Since “does it apply to me” has come up, I have been wondering: do you guys see this course having much crossover to an east coast whitetail hunter? I’m talking primarily tree stand hunting inside of 200 yds.

It all applies. The only thing you can't really do back east is shoot in broken terrain and variable wind.

You'll become more intentional.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

If I get a chance to go I will go in 100% open to change all or everything I do.Im not married to any gear or principles.

Question on bino harness.I have some new binos in the mail and need a new harness
Sg seems to be the favorite of the class and curious how it compares to a marsupial.
Why the preference?
My binos are 8x32 and my br4 rangefinder look to be a better fit in marsupial offerings.
Sg bino bag seems a tad big for the 8x32 and the rangefinder pouch seems to be very close.

The SG sentinel is as much a chest rig as it is a bino harness. It gives you everything you need to have on your body, along with a rifle.

Spare magazine pouch and kestrel on the left. Emergency kit on the bottom. Necessaries (for me, a small kill kit, Allen wrenches for my scope, extra ear plugs, snack bar, etc.) pouch on the right. There’s a convenient place to put your Garmin and a knife as well.

This is a non-exhaustive list. I like the SG. It’s the only binocular harness I have used. If you prefer something else, you do you.

The SG also comes in smaller sizes. The one that was on the classifieds looked to be the right size for 8x32s. The large one fits my 10x42s very well.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Dang, hearing all of this gets me excited to sign up for this course. Hoping to sign up for next year or the year after. It sounds like a blast and love hearing all of the growth people have had.

Has anyone in this or a previous course used a tikka 6 arc as their trainer? I just had one put together as my do all rifle and have been debating picking up either a 223 or a 6cm as a second rifle. I live in WA so there is a 6mm minimum, but my group consistently draws tags for ID and MT. Wondering if anyone has any insight on what would be the preferred second rifle to bring to the course.

Is anyone using wiser quick sticks in this course or are the trekking pole straps more advantageous some how?

How important is a solid bino adapter for the tripod spotting shots at distance in the wind? Currently using a Field Optics Research Rapid-Release. It does the job, but it definitely doesn't lock the binos down and they have a little wiggle to them even though the tripod head and arca attachment are solid. Bumping them with your nose or the wind will induce a little wiggle which I can see making spotting splash more difficult. Hasn't been a big deal for me spotting game, but just curious.

Is it recommended to bring a tripod and big binos/spotter to glass? Is anyone using Sig Zulu's of higher mag instead? On some back country hunts this year I'm opting to leave my big glass and tripod at home and run some Sig's so if I showed up to class without a tripod would that hinder me in any way?

When you guys adjust the turrets from hunting ammo to practice ammo are you slipping the turrets the difference or are you just mentally adding the difference to the dial amount and keeping track of that?

Do you really need the molinator and jelly fish? I assumed the backpack was your front bag so why do you need a bag on a bag (bag inception?) and is the rear bag actually touching the rifle or is it mainly just a gap filler so you can get a firm hold with your hand?

Thanks for the insight!

I asked about using my CZ 527 in 6.5 Grendel as my trainer and was strongly advised against it. If you attend, I recommend getting a .223 as a trainer, or renting one from the course.

You don’t want to use sticks that bind the rifle. The looped straps let the recoil come straight back without torquing the rifle.

I don’t own a tripod or a spotter. Apart from being totally unfamiliar with them, I didn’t lose out on anything. You won’t be trying to spot your own shots. If you have a spotter or 15x binoculars and a tripod, I think you should bring it. I would not worry about digiscoping.

If you look at scopes used in the course, most of them have tape on them with dope or other useful information. For instance, I have “Nano up .3” on my trainer.

The Molinator and Jellyfish are very useful for parts of the course that don’t involve using a backpack or other expedient rest. They also happen to be great strapped onto the pack for use as needed. They are lightweight and non-bulky, so they open up more options if you are in an awkward position.

 

[hibernation]

When still hunting in thicker timber, tracking animals in the snow, or hunting situations where quick shot opportunities are likely, I want my rifle in my hands and ready to go. I don't want additional equipment to manage, drop, or potentially make noise. Because of that, I have reservations about carrying trekking poles throughout the hunt and relying on them as my primary shooting aid.

I haven't taken the class myself, but I don't think I've seen anyone suggesting you carry your trekking poles in hand at all times? I keep mine on my pack for pretty much all big game hunting, they're useful for packouts and in some shooting situations but I generally don't want them in hand while hunting either. I haven't gotten the impression that they're dogmatic about poles being your primary option. If anything, the bits I've gleaned here are to be flexible and practice stripping away external aids and using terrain / improvised supports where you can. Different tools in the toolbox.

 

[Gstew1930]

I haven't taken the class myself, but I don't think I've seen anyone suggesting you carry your trekking poles in hand at all times? I keep mine on my pack for pretty much all big game hunting, they're useful for packouts and in some shooting situations but I generally don't want them in hand while hunting either. I haven't gotten the impression that they're dogmatic about poles being your primary option. If anything, the bits I've gleaned here are to be flexible and practice stripping away external aids and using terrain / improvised supports where you can. Different tools in the toolbox.

correct