Roadless Rule Attack in the Senate

[MTBackroads]

Are you trying to sell him a case of beer or talk about the roadless rule? My god man

He is FOS. What is your take on the roadless rule from Indiana?

 

[RockAndSage]

Last night Sen. Lee introduced an amendment to s.140, the Wildfire Protection Act, which will overturn the 2001 roadless rule and prevents the USFS from putting any similar rule in place in the future. text here. This passed SENR Committee on party lines 11-9, so please, call your senators and ask for this to be removed from s.140 or for them to vote no on s.140. This will severely impact how the majority of us hunt and interact with our landscape.

It's amazing how many wildland firefighters think the roadless rule is criminally negligent and damaging to their ability to do their jobs, weather through killing access, or water transportation, or especially in providing a network of maintained, ready-made firebreaks they can use in commanding and executing suppression strategy on an incident.

Unmaintained roadless forests are not some romantic paradise to play The Mighty Backcountry Hunter in. They are giant fuel bombs.

And when they go off, they don't recover for decades - because even the very mycology of the soil is burned to bare mineral earth. These forests are fire adapted, and part of that means having less density - they need management and/or regular burns. To do that safely requires roads.

It's stunning how many people fall for the mask of benevolence in things that remove humans from the landscape. The same people organizing these campaigns to restrict access are the same people organizing wolf reintroduction, getting anti-hunters on state wildlife boards, passing anti-gun laws, closing farms in the EU, and forcing everyone into urbanized landscapes and electric vehicles. This is not an isolated issue for the people organizing and funding it, even if the local полезные идиоты on the ground they're using keep falling for that mask of benevolence.

I want safe, accessible, healthy forests. Put in and maintain the roads.

 

[NRA4LIFE]

The roadless rule prevented the building of new roads in areas that didn't have any. Thats it.

It never gated or closed a single road.

It doesn't take a gate to make a road unusable. I don't know how many I've seen here in WA that have been disabled by rock slides, mud slides, creek damage and fires that brought down so many trees that the NFS never fixed or cleaned up. Plus there's many that have just been ignored for so long they are unusable. Is that part of this bill? Maybe not. Probably a different pot of money knowing our government.

 

[MTtrout]

I am saying that I am open to some revision on the roadless rule to allow select logging and clearing, forest management, allow electric tools to be used for trail clearing, etc.

Seeing beetle killed deadfall forests everywhere burn like crazy doesn’t feel like it’s helping much. Regenerative, thoughtful logging is a great option in the right forest and could hopefully secure funding for more projects.

Do I think that’s Mike Lees intent ? NOPE
Do I need to read Mike Lees entire plan to know it’s bullshit ? NOPE

Sure, but if we can’t do that on the road areas we already have, how would opening up more roads, into even less productive areas, help? It seems like our thoughts might be similar in forest management but let’s accomplish this where we have established roads first.

There doesn’t seem like much logging potential in beetles killed areas. Salvage at best. Beetle kill is already throughout road areas that we are already have.

 

[satchamo]

He is FOS. What is your take on the roadless rule from Indiana?

I mean going off your hot headed posts, it seems as if no one who wasn’t 26 in 2001 or lives in Montana can have knowledge or an opinion on the subject.

 

[MTBackroads]

I mean going off your hot headed posts, it seems as if no one who wasn’t 26 in 2001 or lives in Montana can have knowledge or an opinion on the subject.

Lol, calling out a liar does ruffle some feathers.
How many miles of FS roads are in Indiana?

 

[Ten Bears]

Sure, but if we can’t do that on the road areas we already have, how would opening up more roads, into even less productive areas, help? It seems like our thoughts might be similar in forest management but let’s accomplish this where we have established roads first.

There doesn’t seem like much logging potential in beetles killed areas. Salvage at best. Beetle kill is already throughout road areas that we are already have.

A lot of the roads we already have are barely roads anymore. A few have better explained above the reasons for new roads, maintaining existing, etc.

I don’t view logging negatively in regards to forests. I think the negative viewpoints that were attached to logging in the 80/90s are part of the reason so many forests are dead tinder boxes today. If clearing beetle kill deadfall to plant and regenerate or selectively logging proper areas prevent more swaths of dead forest I am all for it. Even if that takes adding or maintaining some roads.

There has to be a balance.

 

[MTtrout]

It's amazing how many wildland firefighters think the roadless rule is criminally negligent and damaging to their ability to do their jobs, weather through killing access, or water transportation, or especially in providing a network of maintained, ready-made firebreaks they can use in commanding and executing suppression strategy on an incident.

Unmaintained roadless forests are not some romantic paradise to play The Mighty Backcountry Hunter in. They are giant fuel bombs.

It's amazing how many wildland firefighters think the roadless rule is criminally negligent and damaging to their ability to do their jobs, weather through killing access, or water transportation, or especially in providing a network of maintained, ready-made firebreaks they can use in commanding and executing suppression strategy on an incident.

Unmaintained roadless forests are not some romantic paradise to play The Mighty Backcountry Hunter in. They are giant fuel bombs.

And when they go off, they don't recover for decades - because even the very mycology of the soil is burned to bare mineral earth. These forests are fire adapted, and part of that means having less density - they need management and/or regular burns. To do that safely requires roads.

It's stunning how many people fall for the mask of benevolence in things that remove humans from the landscape. The same people organizing these campaigns to restrict access are the same people organizing wolf reintroduction, getting anti-hunters on state wildlife boards, passing anti-gun laws, closing farms in the EU, and forcing everyone into urbanized landscapes and electric vehicles. This is not an isolated issue for the people organizing and funding it, even if the local полезные идиоты on the ground they're using keep falling for that mask of benevolence.

I want safe, accessible, healthy forests. Put in and maintain the roads.

Again. Our we doing this successfully on the road areas we already have? Look at how we put out fires. They’re letting natural fires burn when acceptable in the roadless areas. It’s not until a ‘most likely’ human caused fire that’s moving towards dwelling when full suppression is in order and money getting involved.

I had to look up benevolence, but I think you are using it wrong for the subject of this thread. This thread has nothing to do with wolf reintroduction, anti hunters, anti gun laws.

To you last thing you said, “put in and maintain the roads” The funding has been cut so who’s gonna do it?

 

[Marbles]

Sure you were. You are definitely failing to answer a simple question, or another about when all the gates were put up.

Two simple questions. How many gates were up in 2000?

Do you, or have you ever held a red card?

Now, don't fail to answer simple questions.

 

[MTBackroads]

I have never been kicked out of a soccer match.

There are approximately 16k less miles of FS roads right now than in 2001, and that includes every mile of new roads built since then. The roadless rule has been used to shut us all out of previous, and new, access to public lands.

The FS doesn't list how many gates they have put up, but they do estimate they have closed 25k to 45k miles of roads since 2001.

 

[Marbles]

I have never been kicked out of a soccer match.

Question, how is it that an Arkansas man has held a redcard, but a 60 year old Montana boy hasn't and apparently doesn't even know what one is?

Or are you just failing to answer simple questions, after attacking someone else for allegedly doing the same?

There are approximately 16k less miles of FS roads right now than in 2001, and that includes every mile of new roads built since then. The roadless rule has been used to shut us all out of previous, and new, access to public lands.

I would prefer we go back to the 1990s when the FS was decommissioning a net 2,500 miles of road a year. Loosing only 16K in 25 years is insufficient, should have kept pace with the pre roadless pace, meaning we should have 62,000 fewer miles of FS road. 305,000 miles would still be more than enough.

Question, why don't you remember the 1990s seeing as you claim to remember 2001 so well? Odd to have amnesia from 25 and further back.

Loss of roads is to shut you out, don't include the rest of us. For people who aren't scared to sweat, we would appreciate fewer roads to keep the soft folks and their vehicles out. I also have no interest in funding the 6+ billion maintenance backlog on current FS roads, much less paying for more.

 

[MTBackroads]

Question, how is it that an Arkansas man has held a redcard, but a 60 year old Montana boy hasn't and apparently doesn't even know what one is?

Or are you just failing to answer simple questions, after attacking someone else for allegedly doing the same?



I would prefer we go back to the 1990s when the FS was decommissioning a net 2,500 miles of road a year. Loosing only 16K in 25 years is insufficient, should have kept pace with the pre roadless pace, meaning we should have 62,000 fewer miles of FS road. 305,000 miles would still be more than enough.

Question, why don't you remember the 1990s seeing as you claim to remember 2001 so well? Odd to have amnesia from 25 and further back.

Loss of roads is to shut you out, don't include the rest of us. For people who aren't scared to sweat, we would appreciate fewer roads to keep the soft folks and their vehicles out. I also have no interest in funding the 6+ billion maintenance backlog on current FS roads, much less paying for more.

The FS is still closing 2.5k miles of road a year due to strict regulation. The math isn’t difficult.
I do remember the 90’s as well, we hardly ever came across closed roads on public land.
If you are stoked about closing access to public land, just say it out loud.
Just don’t pretend we have not lost thousands of miles of access since ‘01.
I will be peddling up a FS trail tomorrow that was maintained by moto guys until it was closed due to the roadless rule.
Feel free to pretend your way up tomorrow and bring your pretend saw.

 

[Zork]

Lol, calling out a liar does ruffle some feathers.
How many miles of FS roads are in Indiana?

I pointed out what you said was false based on actual facts and then you try to gaslight me and everyone else by changing the subject and Im the liar?

 

[Wrench]

How old were you in 2001?
Ending maintenance was used as the reason to close hundreds of miles of FS roads.

Amen. The grizzly zones, the spotted owl, the "woodland caribou" all scare tactics used to destroy the greatest forest areas in e Washington and n idaho.

Priest lake is a prime example... it used to thrive on snowmobiling, hunting and logging. Now it's filled with out of state money and regulations that keep users from doing anything.

West 30 miles in Washington you lost the same habitat plus lost cat hunting and in the first couple of year we went from a unit producing record book sheep to zero animals left. Today it's so thick not even a mushroom can grow except where it burns.....and when it burns, it's too hot to be healthy.

I hope they log every inch of the forest up here.....just do it wisely.

 

[Wrench]

This is super common in our untouched areas. What thrives in this besides worms.

 

[satchamo]

The FS is still closing 2.5k miles of road a year due to strict regulation. The math isn’t difficult.
I do remember the 90’s as well, we hardly ever came across closed roads on public land.
If you are stoked about closing access to public land, just say it out loud.
Just don’t pretend we have not lost thousands of miles of access since ‘01.
I will be peddling up a FS trail tomorrow that was maintained by moto guys until it was closed due to the roadless rule.
Feel free to pretend your way up tomorrow and bring your pretend saw.

We’re talking about closing roads, not access. Why are you continuing to conflate the two?

 

[holmesac89]

It's amazing how many wildland firefighters think the roadless rule is criminally negligent and damaging to their ability to do their jobs, weather through killing access, or water transportation, or especially in providing a network of maintained, ready-made firebreaks they can use in commanding and executing suppression strategy on an incident.

Unmaintained roadless forests are not some romantic paradise to play The Mighty Backcountry Hunter in. They are giant fuel bombs.

And when they go off, they don't recover for decades - because even the very mycology of the soil is burned to bare mineral earth. These forests are fire adapted, and part of that means having less density - they need management and/or regular burns. To do that safely requires roads.

It's stunning how many people fall for the mask of benevolence in things that remove humans from the landscape. The same people organizing these campaigns to restrict access are the same people organizing wolf reintroduction, getting anti-hunters on state wildlife boards, passing anti-gun laws, closing farms in the EU, and forcing everyone into urbanized landscapes and electric vehicles. This is not an isolated issue for the people organizing and funding it, even if the local полезные идиоты on the ground they're using keep falling for that mask of benevolence.

I want safe, accessible, healthy forests. Put in and maintain the roads.

So why don't we address the maintenance backlog on the already existing roads first before adding this huge workload to agencies that are already underfunded? If this was truly about wildfire prevention, they wouldn't be trying to starve the FS and other relevant agencies while adding an enormous workload for them. If you're for this because you want to be able to drive all over the forests then I can at least understand your perspective...but let's not pretend the politicians supporting this amendment really care about YOUR access. They want it open for commercial use.They've given us example after example the last several years they have no appreciation for our forests and wild places.

 

[Marbles]

The FS is still closing 2.5k miles of road a year due to strict regulation. The math isn’t difficult.
I do remember the 90’s as well, we hardly ever came across closed roads on public land.
If you are stoked about closing access to public land, just say it out loud.
Just don’t pretend we have not lost thousands of miles of access since ‘01.
I will be peddling up a FS trail tomorrow that was maintained by moto guys until it was closed due to the roadless rule.
Feel free to pretend your way up tomorrow and bring your pretend saw.

Net vs gross. The math, by your own numbers, makes the net closure of 2,500 miles per year impossible.

Your memory may be accurate to your area, but it certainly isn't accurate across all FS lands.

 

[gbflyer]

I've done usfs road storage. Pulling bridges and culverts, cutting water bars. In our country the alders choke what's left out in the next 10 years or less. It costs less to build a new road than recover the old one. We will never see large scale logging again. Too expensive, the easy wood has already been cut, and the Canadians in the W have no problem exploiting their resources for the eastern capitol. Like Hunger Games.

 

[RockAndSage]

I had to look up benevolence, but I think you are using it wrong for the subject of this thread. This thread has nothing to do with wolf reintroduction, anti hunters, anti gun laws.

I'm using it exactly as intended.

Those who want to kill off hunting are the same people funding and orchestrating roadless rules - and they're the same people funding and orchestrating wolf reintroductions and anti-gun laws.

They always push these things while wearing a mask of benevolence.

Because it suckers in the Karens and "useful idiots" at the local level - by convincing them they're all just being good people. It's the very definition of how you manipulate useful idiots - just organize them from behind a mask of benevolence.

Each of these issues is simply a salami-slice approach along tentacles that reach back to the same root ideology. Google any of the ones mentioned and add in "Agenda 2030" or the Tides Foundation, and you'll find their leadership and money are all interconnected. And the higher you get from the local Karens, the more intense and narrow those connections become.