Riddle me Bergers

[SDHNTR]

Berger says their Hunting bullets are lighter jacketed than their target bullets. That seems rather counter intuitive to me. Wouldn’t you want the tougher bullet for hunting? I don’t shoot Bergers (yet, ?) but I found this surprising. What’s the logic? I always thought target and match (Matchking etc) bullets were not suitable for hunting because they were too frangible and now Berger says their hunting bullets are more frangible? Confusing.

 

[Formidilosus]

Berger says their Hunting bullets are lighter jacketed than their target bullets. That seems rather counter intuitive to me. Wouldn’t you want the tougher bullet for hunting?

No. Maybe. The thicker jackets take more force to upset and Bergers don’t generally “open” as you would expect. The nose collapses, then the bullet fragments from the inside out. Or they tumble and then fragment.

I don’t shoot Bergers (yet, ?) but I found this surprising. What’s the logic? I always thought target and match (Matchking etc) bullets were not suitable for hunting because they were too frangible and now Berger says their hunting bullets are more frangible? Confusing.

No. SMK’s are terminally variable precisely because they don’t always upset due to a small or occluded nose opening.

 

[SDHNTR]

Interesting. So it depends is the answer…

Am I correct in that this seems to be a more uniquely Berger matter due to their design? Because of this statement: “Bergers don’t generally “open” as you would expect. The nose collapses, then the bullet fragments from the inside out.”
Thus, bucking conventional wisdom that target bullets are more frangible than hunting?

 

[Formidilosus]

Interesting. So it depends is the answer…

Am I correct in that this seems to be a more uniquely Berger matter due to their design? Because of this statement: “Bergers don’t generally “open” as you would expect. The nose collapses, then the bullet fragments from the inside out.”
Thus, bucking conventional wisdom that target bullets are more frangible than hunting?

Like constructed, HPBT, thin jacketed, smaller now opening bullets like Bergers and some others don’t behave like most bullets do, which is why they nearly always penetrate 3-5” before upsetting.


If you are seeking less tissue damage and better/more exits, some of the Target Bergers are good.

 

[BBob]

FYI some history. Berger went to a thicker jacket for target bullets because many were coming apart in some of very long faster twist barrels target shooters were using at the time. It didn’t happen to every bullet or to everyone but it started happening enough that they decided to start producing two jackets thicknesses. They left the thin jackets as is for a hunting bullet and went to the thicker for target. Shortly thereafter they started using the orange boxes for the hunting bullets.

I can’t say if it’s still the same for today but the smaller caliber SMK’s were terrible at expanding in game. Back when people around here were trying them anything 25 cal and smaller didn’t do well. They typically didn’t expand at all and just poked holes through flesh. The 30 cal SMK’s did and still do perform great. 30 cal SMK’s expand nicely but hold together very well and don’t come apart at all like a Berger.

And I’ll second that there are a number of target Berger’s that work very well. Pretty much like the 30 cal SMK’s they expand well but don’t fragment like some of the thin jacket hunting line.

 

[prm]

Scenars do the same thing. Perhaps a tiny bit slower to ‘open’.

They found out Bergers worked great for hunting. Then they had an issue with some jackets coming apart. They made a thicker jacket for target bullets but left the thinner jacket for hunting.

 

[Shot]

I had the same worries as you when I bought my custom 28 nosler rifle and the rifle maker had load data with customs loads for me in 180g Berger VLD hunters.

Since I had been away from rifle hunting for over a decade, I just went with his recommendations.

First test was at the range. Rifle made the 1000 yard shots seem easy.

Real test came when I shot several bears, mountain goat, moose, caribou, sheep, deer, and several pigs. Bullet performed great and all animals died within sight. My worries are no more.

-Arbi

 

[SDHNTR]

I had the same worries as you when I bought my custom 28 nosler rifle and the rifle maker had load data with customs loads for me in 180g Berger VLD hunters.

Since I had been away from rifle hunting for over a decade, I just went with his recommendations.

First test was at the range. Rifle made the 1000 yard shots seem easy.

Real test came when I shot several bears, mountain goat, moose, caribou, sheep, deer, and several pigs. Bullet performed great and all animals died within sight. My worries are no more.

-Arbi

What’s up Arbi? Was that an RBros rifle by chance?

 

[SDHNTR]

Scenars do the same thing. Perhaps a tiny bit slower to ‘open’.

They found out Bergers worked great for hunting. Then they had an issue with some jackets coming apart. They made a thicker jacket for target bullets but left the thinner jacket for hunting.

That’s what’s weird to me. Who cares if a bullet comes apart while target shooting? It matters when hunting. So why did the target bullets get “fixed” with the tougher jacket and they left the hunting bullets to continue to come apart? Seems backwards.

 

[Lawnboi]

That’s what’s weird to me. Who cares if a bullet comes apart while target shooting? It matters when hunting. So why did the target bullets get “fixed” with the tougher jacket and they left the hunting bullets to continue to come apart? Seems backwards.

It’s a problem because they come apart mid flight. There’s a handful of bullets that are notorious for this.

 

[BBob]

The people shooting matches to win cared if the bullet came apart. If one comes apart in a match you’re an automatic loser. They didn’t mess with the thin jackets because for most regular rifles it wasn’t a problem and they didn’t want to mess with the known performance on game with those bullets. How many people shoot the thin jackets in hunting rifles have them come apart in flight? Never hear about it. We now know many of the target bullets with the thick jackets do work on game but there are some that don’t work so well.

 

[SDHNTR]

So strange to me. Some do, some don’t. Some good, some bad. How would one without an extensive knowledge of the backstory know? I hunt, couldn’t care less about shooting matches, but I sure don’t want a bullet coming apart in flight, ever. So in .30 cal which are the good and bad ones?

 

[prm]

That’s what’s weird to me. Who cares if a bullet comes apart while target shooting? It matters when hunting. So why did the target bullets get “fixed” with the tougher jacket and they left the hunting bullets to continue to come apart? Seems backwards.

I don’t recall the exact details, but I think some type of rifling was cutting the jackets far enough that the bullets came apart in flight.

 

[Flyjunky]

So strange to me. Some do, some don’t. Some good, some bad. How would one without an extensive knowledge of the backstory know? I hunt, couldn’t care less about shooting matches, but I sure don’t want a bullet coming apart in flight, ever. So in .30 cal which are the good and bad ones?

You’ll have to double check this but if I recall correctly, @Broz mentioned something about the combination of 3 and 4 groove, high velocity, and fast twist were causing some smaller calibers to come apart. I believe the thought was they were inscribing the jacket deeper and with the higher rotational force it was causing separation or to not penetrate.

Hopefully Broz will chime in but I think that was the jist of it.

 

[Shot]

What’s up Arbi? Was that an RBros rifle by chance?

No, Best of the West.

 

[Formidilosus]

That’s what’s weird to me. Who cares if a bullet comes apart while target shooting? It matters when hunting. So why did the target bullets get “fixed” with the tougher jacket and they left the hunting bullets to continue to come apart? Seems backwards.

Because hunters aren’t using the combinations and use that causes the bullet blow-ups mid flight: cut rifling, 3 and 4 groove, high velocity, high heat from 15-30 shots in a row, extremely worn throats.

Also, you have it backwards- target shooters don’t care if the bullet doesn’t upset in tissue, hunters do. Thick jacket “target” Bergers do not upset as consistently or as effectively as the old VLD and Hunting Bergers. Some of the Target Bergers a pretty good for game, all of the Hunting Bergers behave in the Berger manner in game. If you are using it for hunting and like/accept the terminal behavior of Bergers, choose a hunting Berger and don’t worry about it. If you want to shoot Bergers, but for some reason believe that exits are important- some Berger OTM’s and Target bullets work ok.

 

[Formidilosus]

So in .30 cal which are the good and bad ones?

All hunting betters work fine in 30cal down to 1,900-1,800fos impact. The 175gr OTM, 185gr Juggernaut, 200gr 20x, 215gr Hybrid, and 230gr Hybrid all do well in game down to around 2,050fps impact velocity. Off the top of my head those are the ones I have enough experience with to say- there might be others.

 

[SDHNTR]

Because hunters aren’t using the combinations and use that causes the bullet blow-ups mid flight: cut rifling, 3 and 4 groove, high velocity, high heat from 15-30 shots in a row, extremely worn throats.

Also, you have it backwards- target shooters don’t care if the bullet doesn’t upset in tissue, hunters do. Thick jacket “target” Bergers do not upset as consistently or as effectively as the old VLD and Hunting Bergers. Some of the Target Bergers a pretty good for game, all of the Hunting Bergers behave in the Berger manner in game. If you are using it for hunting and like/accept the terminal behavior of Bergers, choose a hunting Berger and don’t worry about it. If you want to shoot Bergers, but for some reason believe that exits are important- some Berger OTM’s and Target bullets work ok.

OK now we are starting to make some sense. Your first paragraph explains it perfectly. That was the reasoning I was looking for.

So take, for example, the 215 Hybrid and the 210 Hunting Vld. Sounds like the 215 might stand a little better chance if you hit the shoulder, yet unlikely to pencil and still expand sufficiently if it slip’s between ribs? I am so conditioned to copper and intentionally shooting stuff in the shoulders, I’ve damn near forgotten about cup and core lead, And certainly haven’t stayed current on the more recent lead stuff like Berger’s.

 

[Formidilosus]

OK now we are starting to make some sense. Your first paragraph explains it perfectly. That was the reasoning I was looking for.

So take, for example, the 215 Hybrid and the 210 Hunting Vld. Sounds like the 215 might stand a little better chance if you hit the shoulder, yet unlikely to pencil and still expand sufficiently if it slip’s between ribs? I am so conditioned to copper and intentionally shooting stuff in the shoulders, I’ve damn near forgotten about cup and core lead, And certainly haven’t stayed current on the more recent lead stuff like Berger’s.

(Bolded part)

Nope. All Bergers will penetrate shoulders without issue. Because of how they upset, they will penetrate 3-5” minimum though basically anything including the thickest “shoulder”, before starting to upset. The 215gr gives a higher chance of an exit, though the 210gr VLD is pretty good in that regard too.

As for “shoulders” in general- I’ve not seen that going through them is any task for basically any decent bullet and cartridge I’m not saying it can’t or hasn’t happened where a bullet “splashes” on a scapula; however in literally thousands of game animals all the way to moose, I haven’t seen a single case of a bullet not penetrating a shoulder. The bone just isn’t that thick- it’s about the same thickness as standard cardboard.


Here’s a 9 year old bull moose scapula showing how thin the are, and a the other side that a 223/77gr TMK went through and popped both lungs-

 

[SDHNTR]

(Bolded part)

Nope. All Bergers will penetrate shoulders without issue. Because of how they upset, they will penetrate 3-5” minimum though basically anything including the thickest “shoulder”, before starting to upset. The 215gr gives a higher chance of an exit, though the 210gr VLD is pretty good in that regard too.

Roger. Thanks. Moot point now as both remain impossible to find. Which I don’t understand, but I know it’s the way of the world these days. Any experience with the 205 Elite Hunter? Those I can find.