Rethinking "Leave no trace"

[Hammockhead]

Well, it's a super complex issue, and everyone is going to be incorrect in their philosophy at some point, including me, which is why I won't go around telling people they murdered a Child in Bangladesh because they are wearing a shirt bought at walmart or whatever. I dont personally buy into the "green" movement as a whole at face value. I dont think carbon emissions are the evil that is preached. I dont think cutting down trees is inherently bad. On the contrary I believe done right its essential. I don't think technology and advancements are bad. Overall I really dont believe there is a hard line where "this is bad" and "this is good". Just like I dont view myself as a good parent or bad parent. I am a parent, I make mistakes, and try to improve and seek better. There is not a magic point where I transition from one to the other. There are just a billion moments. "Modern farming practices are bad", same thing. Can they improve, you bet, and they should. But yes I do believe the impact of running producing natural material CAN (and usually do) have less negative impact than synthetics. But heck, I could be wrong.

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[Hammockhead]

I think an argument could be made that our global practice of consumerism could possibly be the biggest contributor to "polution" vs the nature of the goods. It's what has largely encouraged these "modern farming practices". Even from a natural resources standpoint, our demand for material and product far outweighs our needs. And I have been as guilty as anyone.

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[AKBorn]

Even from a natural resources standpoint, our demand for material and product far outweighs our needs. And I have been as guilty as anyone.

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I agree with this 100%. I love to hunt and fish; I try to minimize the amount of new stuff I use in doing those activities, because the newer stuff doesn't increase my enjoyment one bit over the older stuff.

My compound bow is 20 years old, and I don't plan on buying another. I only own 3 rifles to hunt with (.22 Mag, .30-06, .338 WinMag) and have no plans to buy any more; I will endeavor to buy non-lead ammo going forward.

Except for my boots, all of my hunting clothes are 20 years old. I know they aren't the latest fabric technology, but the deer/moose/caribou don't seem to notice.

If my clothes are still functional when I am too old to hunt much anymore (59 currently), I hope to find a new home for them where they can be used and appreciated until they are in tatters.

Thanks for the thought provoking thread.

 

[TheGDog]

ALL the materials come from this very Earth itself. You don't think the Earth has a way of handling all the BS we can possibly do to it? Of course it can! Just that in our arrogance... we don't happen to like some of those effects and ways in which it deals with it.

What we are trying to mitigate... is the effect these man-made creations and compounds have on living organisms before the Earth finally handles it, like it always has.

EXAMPLE ? : Oil/Fossil Fuels - Basically all the old dead living organisms and plant matter... subjected to a ton of pressure for a long darn time. Just as bad when it's in a Tar pit as it is elsewhere. Just much more centralized, and therefore avoidable.

NOT AT ALL saying we don't need to be mindful of how we handle these creations and compounds WE happen to elect to put together with various processes and forms of energy, in terms of making sure when discarded we confine that to centralized locations where the Earth can do it's thing, to minimize it's impact on ourselves and our neighbor organisms.

I'm just saying it's naive to think WE can "harm" this planet. (The exception being nuclear fission detonation.) We can induce great inconvenience to the things living on this planet... but we cannot "harm" this planet. We can only "harm" ourselves and our "neighbors" (the other living things) on this planet. And in that sense... I agree... as sentient organisms, we need to be mindful of our actions/choices.

View the outdoors as the true holy shrine. That place to escape that asphalt and concrete prison we live in. We need to leave it as we found it as best as possible.. because someday we're going to need to head back into it for safety.

 

[Scoot]

Thanks for the thought provoking thread.

What he said!

 

[Smallie]

Regarding environmental effects:

I live near multiple paper mills and know many people that do/did work at them. They can tell what products are being made on a particular day by the dye colors exiting the plant into the river. The fishing is still good below these mills, but unless you take out the "mud line" as its referred to, the fillets smell like sulphur. Not to mention the high concentration of mercury and lead found in the river and it's impoundments. These have lead to health warnings regarding the numbers of fish it is healthy to consume. All these mills have met EPA laws/certifications.

I've worked at many landfills here in Wisconsin as a contractor. The older unlined landfills are the problem. One medical landfill I worked in had syringes laying around like leaves on top of the ground, and all the contaminates had leaked into the ground water for the surrounding area. Anyone working on site had blood drawn before and after to check for contamination, and was required to wear rubber boots/gloves, eye protection, and full tyvek suits.

Any new landfill here has a red clay liner underneath along with a pvc membrane. They are capped (closed) the same way to prevent contaminates from escaping the cell. There is still methane vented or burned off depending on the site. One new 40 acre cell I worked on, had all the garbage from Green Bay and the Fox Valley sent to it. It was open for roughly 5 years before being full and capped.

Sadly we have become a "throw away" society.

I went to school in Appleton right on the Fox River below those paper mills. A shame that pollution made the fish inedible because I have caught boatloads of crappies, walleye, and white bass over the course of the 4 years I was there. I know the water quality has been improving as of late but the project has cost millions to clean up. I used to watch the Hmong taking stringers of fish home to eat and it would be interesting to see their health implications down the road.

 

[String&stick]

This is also the conundrum of being a hunter/outdoors person and having political viewpoints.

When we talk about cutting red tape and "deregulating" we in a sense are talking about approving pollution. I know that is a gross over simplification, and I 100% know that the eco left has over regulated many industries with pointless items. But our US and Global corporations have proven time and time again that, by and large, they just don't care about the environment. They care about the bottom line.

Go watch "Dark waters" on Netflix and you may find yourself thinking DuPont should be sued out of existence, possibly by the government of these great United States, instead they have paid out less than 1 years production profits for the huge mess they created. . .

I am conservative and small government minded, but I'm afraid our government officials are so deep in the pockets of large corporations that the only way to reign in some of the corporate abuse is through strong legislation. Some of which has since been put in place (since the DuPont pollution) but at the same time we still have companies getting away with murder and polluting on a large scale.

China is currently the pollution king of the world, but when we point the finger at them we are really pointing right back at ourselves because their rise to power and massive production was bought and paid for on the backs of our consumerism and desire for low priced junk!

I agree that we all need to focus on what we can personally do, and we should also look to support those doing the right thing with our money even if it means paying 1.5x or 2x or even 5x for a product where reasonable.

At the same time, we need to be reasonable as we look at changes being made and the impacts they will have (EV, solar, wind, increases fuel efficiency). All these help the planet but on days like today when it was -24 with -42 wind chill in nebraska, we still need that coal fired plant to keep the juice turned on!!! (Currently rolling blackouts in nebraska since 7 mph winds don't turn the windmills to produce much juice and our power pool has reduce coal fired production across the last decade)

So in summary: I'll keep being a hypocrite in some areas while trying to do better across the areas I can control!

 

[S.Clancy]

I hear your message. I'm still trying to wrap my head around not hunting big game with lead anymore. I have a sheep hunt on the horizon and the only copper ammo I have left is for my 30-06. There is literally nothing else for sale at the moment. I really wanted to take my .270, Oh well.

My newest vehicle is a 2004 Ford F250 Super Duty. The others are Jeeps from the 90's. If I can't fix it I won't own it, or so I try to think. No matter what though, even trying to buy only USA made products, our lives are full of plastic shit from China. Some people have more than others. It's all going to the landfill at some point.

Totally off topic, but I bought a box of Barnes ammo (TTSX) locally last week in 270. I can be on the lookout if you want. I think they charged me around $40

 

[Dos Perros]

Consumerism is the issue, and I type this well aware of my own hypocrisy.

It's easy for me to condemn the more affluent, but I'm sure there are folks consuming less than me and mine that would just as soon condemn us.

I like how the OP has found something concerning to him, and made a choice to do something about it. While his something may or may not have an actual positive impact on the world, he is a man in control of his choices, and I respect that.

I myself like to buy quality stuff and use the ever living crap out of it. I also like to buy gently used. And I do like to sell gear down the line. If we can get our things to do more jobs maybe we need less things...that's my thought at least.

 

[gabenzeke]

Hear me out....I'm not some hippy, and definitely not a liberal, but hemp can be used to make damn near anything, even plastic. It's UV resistant and biodegradable. I think using it in place of plastics and fossil fuels would do amazing things. Not to mention the plants do a pretty good job of removing carbon from the atmosphere and contaminants from soil. The other thing I often think is we need to return to using more fur and leather. It's natural and renewable. But try telling liberals that trapping is good. Heck, try telling that to someone in the middle. It's a tough sell thanks to all the misinformation.

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[TheGDog]

The other thing I often think is we need to return to using more fur and leather. It's natural and renewable. But try telling liberals that trapping is good. Heck, try telling that to someone in the middle. It's a tough sell thanks to all the misinformation.

Oh heck yeah... Thank You! I'm soo going to whip this factoid out the next time I'm faced with a Vegan libtard getting all on my isht about hunting. (Happens more than you'd think. Not necessarily the Vegan part, but you get the idea) "natural and renewable" brilliant! Their virtue-signalling heads will implode from a stack-overflow due to the infinite loop!!

 

[Baron528]

I went to school in Appleton right on the Fox River below those paper mills. A shame that pollution made the fish inedible because I have caught boatloads of crappies, walleye, and white bass over the course of the 4 years I was there. I know the water quality has been improving as of late but the project has cost millions to clean up. I used to watch the Hmong taking stringers of fish home to eat and it would be interesting to see their health implications down the road.

I was referring to the mills on the Wisconsin River (Wausau, Steven Point, Wis Rapids, Nekoosa, Port Edwards) not the Fox, but I know of a bunch of issues around Appleton as well. I don't know how anyone can eat fish out of the Fox if it's as bad as the Wisconsin. The worst stretch is below Nekoosa to Petenwell Flowage. I've been told by multiple people when they cooked fish from that section without removing the mud line, their dogs wouldn't even touch it.

 

[AK_Skeeter]

I wish shooters would "leave no trace".
I shoot at gravel pits and every Monday I load the pickup bed
with "targets" from weekend shooters...propane tanks, TVs, bottles, etc.

 

[sahunter06]

While “leave no trace “ has so many interpretations. We all understand that each of us makes a conscious decision daily to do what we can to make it a better place for our kids and future generations. It’s incumbent for us to take responsibility for what we can control. Sure I overthink about upgrading my gear all the time. That’s why I have boots that are 25 years old and still go out west with me every year. I also use my gear until it no longer can serve it’s purpose. It’s something I can control and teach my kids to do the same.

Take this example;
Should we take existing fields and woodlands, clear them and make a solar field for cleaner energy? They just purchased 8000 ac of prime wildlife habitat south of me and created a solar panel field. Sure it was an individuals conscious decision to sell the land. Were they informed about the direct and indirect implications about their decision? Maybe, maybe not. There are many questions we could ask but at the end of the day it’s their decision. Their decision might clearly be financially motivated. Now, think about the impact on wildlife and cattle for the future. Not to mention after the land has served its purpose it’s no longer viable for cattle grazing and wildlife due to the ground level mercury exposure according to experts in this field.

I’ll continue to do the best I can within my little bubble to educate those around me about my perspectives and hope it reaches a few of them.

 

[FLAK]

One cannot exist on this planet without displacing other creatures/organisms.
The bottom line is there are too many of us here.
Look to India, Asia, China, Africa for the real environmental issues.
I'll do the best I can - and carry on.

 

[TheGDog]

One cannot exist on this planet without displacing other creatures/organisms.
The bottom line is there are too many of us here.
Look to India, Asia, China, Africa for the real environmental issues.
I'll do the best I can - and carry on.

THANK YOU!!! Finally somebody else who "Gets It!". In my life span so far (I'm now 52yo) in the US alone... our population has grown 60%!!!

I've thought about this a lot, and I call my simple plan... "Replace Yourself".

The rule is simple... no more than 2 offspring can spring forth from the loins of any human being for the prescribed amount of time until our numbers gradually come back down thru natural mortality rates to some pre-determined and agreed upon value.

We've learned how having only 1 offspring goes horribly wrong as these a-holish dudes end up ditching babies in dumpster because they want to carry-on their family name (just utter foolishness)

And ya figure 2 is fair. That way they can't complain if they only got one sex of child and wanted the other. Ya get the two shots... by then your hands are full anyway.

AND... to be nice... we'll even give ya a do-over if one of those offspring dies within the first 3yrs of life. Just to be fair.

Then... ya just sit back, relax, and enjoy your life while nature just handles the problem. And the key difference is it handles the problem slowly and gradually over time. And it's necessary to handle it gradually so all the economies can adapt to the change in thinking. Because everything is geared towards pushing for growth year after year paid for off the backs of the ever-increasing base of the young.

Also, all indoctrinated belief systems are all about making it "sinful" to control birthing numbers because they want more representation in governance which equates to power and control ultimately. And all of them recommend against a female taking a husband outside of their faith, but all demand that the kid be raised in *their* faith if she does! ( Funny how that works, eh? )

 

[DCAN]

I worked at a recycling center for my retirement job. That was an eye opener! A town near me outlawed plastic bags in the grocery stores. At the same time grocery stores would fill a semi trailer with old plastic shopping carts headed for the landfill. Unbelievable.

 

[GoferDog]

One cannot exist on this planet without displacing other creatures/organisms.
The bottom line is there are too many of us here.
Look to India, Asia, China, Africa for the real environmental issues.
I'll do the best I can - and carry on.

Pick up your rubbish and that of some others, there isn’t a lot more you can do that that!

 

[Gobbler36]

I have never actually looked into the official ways or ethics of the “leave no trace” organization, so I use that term very loosely, but I hear it a lot from a hunting buddy who lets me use his suppressor and hand loads all my ammo(so he’s not too hippy nuts). One of the attributes that I have always appreciated about the hunting community as a whole is our respect for the land we roam. Yes, there are those that take their ATVs off designated roads, leave their beer cans and garbage at campsites, etc. But as a whole I feel it is the norm to discourage these behaviors and promote practices that show we care about the good earth God gave us. I would say that most of us that at least casually identify as “a hunter” like to think that we do our part to not destroy the land we hunt, and would like our children to enjoy it after us.
But what if our choices ARE destroying the land. Just maybe not that land we hunt and see, or not as directly. Would you feel any different? What if despite all our “leave no trace” efforts we are still very much leaving a trace, around the whole planet?
Let me clarify a few things before I continue. This is not some backdoor, left wing, eco-nut political agenda that I am trying to sneak in. I am mostly speaking to myself here, but am also just looking to share some thoughts, and spark some conversation.
A few weeks back I read an article about how it is no longer safe to eat any fish from the river I grew up near(and also ate a ton of pike from this year). The water was polluted, and contaminated the fish meat. This event got my emotions involved a bit, because I love eating fish, and by golly that was my hometown which was supposed to live on in glorious nostalgia forever. I started actually thinking about my own choices, what I buy, and who I support, and what I throw away. I will fast forward a bit and skip a lot of long conversations that occurred to get me where I am at this point. So, here it is…
Many of the products I own and use as a hunter are awful for the environment, or were made with some real shady ethical standards, or will shortly end up in a landfill where we just bury them in a mountain for who knows how many hundreds of years while they slowly leak toxic sludge into our ground so that I can’t feel right about keeping and eating that really nice northern pike my boy caught. I am going to stop here and say that right now, this is not about carbon emissions or “climate change”. This is about the undeniable fact that we are burying all our old stuff in the mountains. Salted with the other fact that some of it was made in working conditions that are outright barbaric. I am mostly going to direct this towards synthetic materials and pretend that everything else will biodegrade in the landfills (which it doesn’t).
On one level there are the disposable items. Rubber gloves, plastic ground sheets, hand warmers, etc and all the packaging that all your food and new toys come in. Here is an experiment for you: for one season don’t discard anything, but instead just keep all your hunting garbage in a big bag in the garage and see just how much (or little) you end up with.
On a deeper level though, is our gear and apparel. The stuff we researched, and saved up for, and carry around with us everywhere. Once we are done with it, what happens to it? I think sometimes we trick our minds because we don’t throw it away. We donate it to a thrift shop, we sell it online or pass it on to a friend. But there are no two ways about it, at some point, it gets buried in a mountain. And thanks to the genius advertising in our fashion industry(no, we are not exempt), when Sitka releases a new camo pattern or Kuiu comes out with some new tech, they have us hook line and sinker. We like to think we are not like “those vain people” that buy a new $900 purse every six months, but seriously. Many would not be caught dead wearing 90’s realtree or *gasp* woodland camo. Now yes, I know this does not apply to everyone. Some still proudly wear and use stuff from “the past”, but in large the hunting industry is heavy and growing with consumerism. But that is its own beast, and worthy of its own discussion. What I am more calling to attention is the fact that our stuff is almost all made out of plastic. We live and breathe nylon and polyester. Gore-tex, primoloft, thinsulate, cordura, blah, blah blah….it’s all plastic. I get it, it’s light, it’s cheap, it’s wicking, it’s waterproof, it’s you name it. But it’s all plastic, and it isn’t going anywhere for a long, long time. In the meantime they will just leak dyes, glues, additives, conditioners and chemicals. The effects of which we don’t even fully understand.
So, where does this leave me? Well, going cold turkey I could simply eliminate all synthetics from my future purchases. What’s funny, it’s that natural materials are often arguably better, and if not better, at least still pretty solid options. Wool is making a comeback, and thank goodness, because wool is awesome. Down hasn’t gone anywhere, and is still unbeatable in many ways. The biggest kicker with all natural materials is wet. Nothing beats the wet like plastic. Wool gets heavy, down becomes useless, and the only real options for “waterproof” seem to be waxed canvas, which, well you know. Personally I think there are many natural fibers and materials that have tremendous possibilities. But we spend more time developing plastic tech because it’s cheaper, easier and it sells. Side note, haven’t we all noticed how old down sleeping bags, and old wool jackets still have value and function and appeal, but a 10yo synthetic sleeping bag is nearly useless, and old poly stuff is just gross? Also, I have to admit, and maybe it’s just me, but I have always felt a little out of place hiking miles back in the hills covered to head to toe in plastic. It doesn’t feel “right”. Maybe I would feel less out of place if I was covered in fur, wool and leather...lol, I don’t know.
So where does this really leave me? I likely won’t sell all my synthetics right now,, if not just because they already exist and selling them won’t keep them from still going to be buried in a mountain. But moving forward, yes, I am going to be giving my money for products that if I happen to lose while in the hills, will just back into dirt. Yes, it will be heavier. Yes, it will be bulkier. But one more reason to just take less crap and to get in better shape. The consumer rules the world. If we stop buying, “they” stop making. If enough people put their money towards products that will actually last a lifetime made from living material, then that’s what will be developed and sold. I really don’t think cost is the issue for most of us. I bet we spend more on disposable fashion and equipment than we would on a true quality piece of gear. It’s just going to require that I don’t value convenience over conviction. I tell my kids almost every day, “hard isn’t bad”. Just because something is difficult doesn’t make it bad. Much can be gained from difficulty. None of us go hunting because it’s something easy, right...right? How often do we tell ourselves, “I like hunting elk because it’s challenging”, and then go spend hundreds of dollars on gear to make it easier. Did our fathers enjoy it less in their wool pants and jacket than we do in our huntagucci? Perhaps it’s the other way around. Perhaps, we are missing out on something more. So, I want to find out. I will try and let you know how it goes

Totally agree

it’s just so hard though, when our lives are so busy with work, kids, etc to do things like garden, etc to be more sustainable when every piece of food you buy is wrapped in plastic.

100% agree though we will eventually look back on this time and future generations will think we were so stupid for the things we do now

 

[HighUintas]

The human hypocrisy is everywhere.

I'll save the environment by driving across country and posting Instagram pictures on my cell phone.

Let's manufacture tons of lithium batteries and solar panels that will eventually be non-working and non-recyclable.

Let's spend trillions and even more in energy and resources to research medications and ways to "save" the earth but still keep our high standard of living with all things technology.