Reload misfire help!

[rileybassman]

Hello all,

Went to the range yesterday with some reloads my neighbor has worked up for me and experienced some issues...
I had 4 misfires in 16 shots So much for hunting with these loads... There was a firing pin mark on the primer.
All of them fired on the second strike... my hypothesis is that they were not seated deep enough and the first strike placed them and the second actually fired them... but I would like some input. So far, I haven't had the issue with factory rounds, but have not fired near as many factory as handloads... My concern was also my firing pin, but it measured at 0.050 protrusion, which seems in speck... The handload seems to have a flatter primer too fwiw. I am shooting a 168 TTSX over 57 grains of IMR 4350, so I don't think there is a pressure issue...

Here are some pics of a handload fired, factory fired, and a factory load fired from my wife's rifle the same day (she had no misfires but shot almost exclusively factory ammo.

Any comments are appreciated! I am fairly new to reloading, so just learning

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[hooker]

Kinda hard to tell from the picture the color of the primer on the "My Rifle Handloads"... Are they CCI 250's? Just curious. Owned a Kimber montana once that did the same thing with loads and CCI 25o primers. Folks claim the CCI's are a harder primer. Still no reason to not fire IMO. The Kimbers did have a firing pin spring issue. Kimber sent me a replacement spring .. Seemed to work.

 

[rileybassman]

They are 200s standard rifle primers.

 

[mtswampfox]

Assuming the primer pockets arent stretched kind of agree with your suspicion of not seated properly. Also the hard primer issue could be a factor.would try it again and check seating depth before firing. Something like this can really screw up your confidence in the rifle, but if its shooting some loads ok would rule out bolt or firing pin issues. Had a similar problem with kimber 22-250 on a prairie dog shoot but it was misfiring about fifty percent. Returnrned bolt to kimber for a rework and problem solved

 

[robtattoo]

I'd bet cash money that the primers aren't fully seated.
Dirty primer pockets could do that, could be they've just not pressed in hard enough. Firing on the second try it's almost always the case.
The flattened (slightly) primer is probably nothing & certainly nothing to worry about by itself.
It could be a sign of slight over pressure, it could be a sign of excess headspace, it could be a sign of the brass shoulder being bumped a couple thou too far, it could be a slightly soft primer. Unless you're seeing some other negative signs (sudden loss of accuracy/consistency, velocity drops our spikes, 'odd' recoil or muzzle report etc...) ignore it.

 

[Shrek]

3x for improperly seated primers and I wouldn't go any higher on charge either from looking at the primers. CCI 200's and 250's are known for hard cups and you've lost almost all of the rounded edge. That's as hot as I'd tolerate personally. What powder and how hot was it ? If the load was developed in cooler weather with temp sensitive powder it may easily be over pressure on a hot day. It was 105* on my back porch thermometer in the shade today here and there is no way in Hades I'd shoot anything I have loaded on my bench in this heat.

Edit ; sorry , I read your post again and imr 4350 is somewhat temperature sensitive. The load is probably fine in cool weather but it looks to be on the hot side right now.

 

[rileybassman]

Awesome thank you all for the input... kind of verifies what I was thinking. Talked to another guy who said it could be bad primers/moisture in the primers... Any thoughts on this?

 

[rileybassman]

I'd bet cash money that the primers aren't fully seated.
Dirty primer pockets could do that, could be they've just not pressed in hard enough. Firing on the second try it's almost always the case.
The flattened (slightly) primer is probably nothing & certainly nothing to worry about by itself.
It could be a sign of slight over pressure, it could be a sign of excess headspace, it could be a sign of the brass shoulder being bumped a couple thou too far, it could be a slightly soft primer. Unless you're seeing some other negative signs (sudden loss of accuracy/consistency, velocity drops our spikes, 'odd' recoil or muzzle report etc...) ignore it.

How temp sensitive is IMR 4350? These loads were developed in the mid 40s-50s... and this weekend were shot in the low 70s.
I haven't seen any other pressure signs that I am aware of... recoil was fine... when I checked over a chrono a month ago they were 2810s in FPS.

POI was same at 100 yards too...

 

[robtattoo]

It's pretty sensitive, compared to Varget etc... But from 40°-70° it shouldn't be that much if a difference.
If you'd initially chrono'd & worked up a fast load at 30° and you'd been shooting in the mid 90s, you would expect to start seeing overpressure signs.
Most powders, as far as I'm aware, are formulated to work at their best within a temperature range. The only difference between sensitive & insensitive powders is the size of that range.
Varget was formulated to perform in external temps from 40-90° which is huge. The older, standard powders will likely show some velocity/pressure variation at every temperature change. Usually not massive differences, even at extreme changes you'll only be talking 20 or 30 fps, certainly not enough to visibly notice on a 100 yds target or in primer deformation.

 

[KMD]

Did your neighbor full length size your brass for you?
How did he set the sizing die?
Was that brass fired in YOUR rifle, previously?
How did he measuring the amount to bump the case shoulder back, with relation to YOUR RIFLE???

I ask because it sounds like you might have had brass sized excessively for your rifle's chamber dimensions.
That scenario would answer both 'issues' you are having...

1. An excessive headspace condition will cause pressure signs (read: flattened primers)

2. Overly-small brass may fit your rifles chamber so loosely that the firing pin is not striking the primers fully

3. The fact that factory ammo is igniting, but reloads are not, points to an issue stemming from the reloading operation.


Over-sizing brass is a very common thing to do. Can happen very easily, even though one is "following the instructions" of the sizing die.

Please follow up, and then we'll be better able to help you get lined out...

PS
DO NOT SHOOT ANY MORE OF THAT RELOADED AMMO!!!

Excessive headspace can be a DANGEROUS CONDITION, resulting in casehead separation and all kinds of other bad stuff involving your facial features being altered in an unnatural fashion.

STOP
STOP
STOP where you are!

FYI ALWAYS USE EXTREME CAUTION WHEN TESTING "somebody else's reloads" in YOUR RIFLE!!!

 

[rayporter]

read KMD's post real close. real close.

 

[KMD]

I swear some of this internet expertise is gonna get somebody's face blown off one day...

 

[rayporter]

bad primers? phooy!

try it -spray em with water and go shoot em. spray em with wd -40 and go shootem. soak em- maybe cause trouble. but dry them and try them!

i have dropped primers into my morning coffee on purpose and loaded it when i finished coffee and said ' wanna bet if it goes off?' to who ever is standing there.

 

[rayporter]

the danger comes if they are shot again.

if the guy doing the loading has a way to measure the case [base to shoulder] you can find how much difference there is [ if any] between the fired cases and the reloaded one.

there are other ways too. if you want to try them send a note.

show a pic of the unfired primers-if they are not below flush..............

 

[larryschwartz]

KMDs comment number 2 (2. Overly-small brass may fit your rifles chamber so loosely that the firing pin is not striking the primers fully) caught my attention because the base of the reloaded shell seems to be smaller in diameter than the factory load shells. I don't reload so it is probably my amateur eyes, but see what you think. Are they slightly smaller shells?

 

[Stid2677]

Did your neighbor full length size your brass for you?
How did he set the sizing die?
Was that brass fired in YOUR rifle, previously?
How did he measuring the amount to bump the case shoulder back, with relation to YOUR RIFLE???

I ask because it sounds like you might have had brass sized excessively for your rifle's chamber dimensions.
That scenario would answer both 'issues' you are having...

1. An excessive headspace condition will cause pressure signs (read: flattened primers)

2. Overly-small brass may fit your rifles chamber so loosely that the firing pin is not striking the primers fully

3. The fact that factory ammo is igniting, but reloads are not, points to an issue stemming from the reloading operation.


Over-sizing brass is a very common thing to do. Can happen very easily, even though one is "following the instructions" of the sizing die.

Please follow up, and then we'll be better able to help you get lined out...

PS
DO NOT SHOOT ANY MORE OF THAT RELOADED AMMO!!!

Excessive headspace can be a DANGEROUS CONDITION, resulting in casehead separation and all kinds of other bad stuff involving your facial features being altered in an unnatural fashion.

STOP
STOP
STOP where you are!

FYI ALWAYS USE EXTREME CAUTION WHEN TESTING "somebody else's reloads" in YOUR RIFLE!!!

I have seen this exact thing cause misfires, This or poorly seated primers would be were I would start.

When I reload for a rifle 2 things are always near by my bench,, the rifle I'm loading for and a once fired case from that rifle. Both are critical to ensure safe function.

 

[MULEPACKHUNTER]

Don't overlook primers seated too hard as well, I learned this the hard way hand priming .223 rounds. If you smash primers they won't fire. I did some testing and was able to over press primers and they failed every time. The ones I seated correctly were all fired without incident.

 

[Shrek]

The fact that they all fired with a second strike narrows it to poorly seated primers in my mind. If it was overly sized cases the second stike in a bolt action wouldn't cure the problem because when you lift the bolt to cock it you pulled the case back again. It could also be a combination of overly sized cases and unseated primers. Either way I wouldn't trust the person who loaded that ammo to load any more.

 

[Rowdy]

Quote Originally Posted by KMD View Post
Did your neighbor full length size your brass for you?
How did he set the sizing die?
Was that brass fired in YOUR rifle, previously?
How did he measuring the amount to bump the case shoulder back, with relation to YOUR RIFLE???

I ask because it sounds like you might have had brass sized excessively for your rifle's chamber dimensions.
That scenario would answer both 'issues' you are having...

1. An excessive headspace condition will cause pressure signs (read: flattened primers)

2. Overly-small brass may fit your rifles chamber so loosely that the firing pin is not striking the primers fully

3. The fact that factory ammo is igniting, but reloads are not, points to an issue stemming from the reloading operation.


Over-sizing brass is a very common thing to do. Can happen very easily, even though one is "following the instructions" of the sizing die.

Please follow up, and then we'll be better able to help you get lined out...

PS
DO NOT SHOOT ANY MORE OF THAT RELOADED AMMO!!!

Excessive headspace can be a DANGEROUS CONDITION, resulting in casehead separation and all kinds of other bad stuff involving your facial features being altered in an unnatural fashion.

STOP
STOP
STOP where you are!

FYI ALWAYS USE EXTREME CAUTION WHEN TESTING "somebody else's reloads" in YOUR RIFLE!!!
I have seen this exact thing cause misfires, This or poorly seated primers would be were I would start.

When I reload for a rifle 2 things are always near by my bench,, the rifle I'm loading for and a once fired case from that rifle. Both are critical to ensure safe function.


This is spot on information, I'd bet it all has to do with proper head spacing and less to do with the way the primer was seated but you can't rule it out as I've seen folks do some odd things. I'd find it very odd also if he didn't want your rifle in his possession while building reloads. Best thing you could do is load for yourself because nobody cares about your face and well being as much as you. Personally I wouldn't shoot somebody else's reloads on a bet.

 

[mtswampfox]

STOP
STOP
STOP where you are!

FYI ALWAYS USE EXTREME CAUTION WHEN TESTING "somebody else's reloads" in YOUR RIFLE!!!
I have seen this exact thing cause misfires, This or poorly seated primers would be were I would start.

When I reload for a rifle 2 things are always near by my bench,, the rifle I'm loading for and a once fired case from that rifle. Both are critical to ensure safe function.


This is spot on information, I'd bet it all has to do with proper head spacing and less to do with the way the primer was seated but you can't rule it out as I've seen folks do some odd things. I'd find it very odd also if he didn't want your rifle in his possession while building reloads. Best thing you could do is load for yourself because nobody cares about your face and well being as much as you. Personally I wouldn't shoot somebody else's reloads on a bet.[/QUOTE]
good advice and will add to it,, dont reload for anyone else. scenario that always scared me, guy goes to range telling his wifey going to try out some reloads joe blow made for me. what he didnt tell her was two other guys gave him some reloads to try out. gun blows up , wifey remembers joe blows name and blames him.