Recourse for undisclosed issues in home purchase?

[GHOSTofWENDELL]

How would a inspector find frozen pipes when they were not frozen at the time or better yet, even exposed. It's not like you scope supply lines unless there is an obvious leak...You're wasting your time calling an attorney. Just fix your pipes.

 

[GotDraw?]

one more point-

Did you buy it using the seller's contract- or did you have foresight to try using your own attorney's contract?

No one says you MUST use seller's paper.

If the seller's paper-- Did you have your attorney review the contract before you signed? If not, you missed your chance for the cheapest, most cost-effective lawyering available... paying your attorney to review the work already done by another in order to poke holes in it and cover your ass.

Sorry this went sideways. Shit happens. At least this is pretty cheap shit.

JL

 

[11boo]

Fix it and move on.

 

[tdhanses]

I had a similar experience. We bought our house in December and when spring arrived and the snow melted the basement started to collect water. We found it was coming through the foundation wall. The carpet had been recently replaced in the room the water collected. There was no way that was the first time it happened. I had to excavate the foundation and apply a water proof membrane and a an exterior well/sump pump. It cost about $10K. When considering hiring a lawyer at $150/hour it would only take about 2 weeks of his time to cost more than the fix with no guarantee of recouping any money.

Thats a pretty inexpensive attorney at $150 an hr, most decent ones are $300+.

 

[tdhanses]

Simply...this is NOT the first time this has occurred. I’m cheap in many aspects. I generally keep the inside 53-59 degrees and wear a hoody while watching Yellowstone. I knew it was fixing to get cold. I turned all the heat UP in advance.
This was for certain a known issue to the prior owner

I had a rental property that the tenants complained every year the kitchen pipes would freeze, never happened once when I lived in it, since they moved out I’ve gotten a divorce and moved back in, never once have the pipes frozen and the temps have been way colder the last 2 years then any of the 4 they rented. I keep my temp at 80* when it’s getting really cold, what is turned the heat up for you, hopefully not in the 60’s or low 70’s. If so, I doubt you’d win as all they have to prove is you aren’t keeping the place warm in really cold temps.

Turn the heat up and pay the extra $50 a month.

 

[zion zig zag]

If you have to keep the heat up to 80 to keep pipes from freezing, the house is designed poorly.

 

[journeyman713]

Anyone hear from him lately, hope he doesn’t have his tongue stuck to the pipe.

 

[GotDraw?]

For those that suggest the easy ones...my wood stove is CRANKED. Every means of heat is maxed. I live apart from my wife in this home during the week. This house is only 1400sq ft. Single story. Jinky AF. All plumbing and electrical I believe is listed as “self”.
Never crossed paths w former owner. While viewing home prior to purchase I gather he was prior Law Enforcement. I am also Law Enforcement. Active.
My neighbor recently approached me and asked me for “water”. Seems a valve in my greenhouse fills her above ground 250 gallon tank 140 yards away. That wasn’t fully disclosed to me either.
Basically this AH just wanted his check and bail back to California.
I have enough green cash remaining from the sale of my former home and I’m quite principled. If the fees are less than $4000.....I’m quit inclined to attempt to stick my boot right up his ass if I can legally win.

@Jesse Jaymes -- I missed this the first time around...

Brother, here's your problem- you bought a house going into it that you knew was "jinky AF" and where you knew the owner did the plumbing and electrical himself.

You've told us you're a penny pincher (and that's ok), but if you knew you were buying a "jinky AF" house w/questionable workmanship then your decision not to spend the money to have an attorney put language in the contract up front to cover your butt for any substandard, or non-code compliant workmanship was your decision alone and you gotta own it. Most folks politely call this "a learning opportunity". Mine sucked, but hey, I learned.

Be v. grateful this is a small potatoes matter and that you can fix it yourself, because that alone is a win! The seller did not screw you, you gave yourself an inexpensive learning opportunity about where and when to invest/spend your money when trying to buy anything where something may not be exactly as it appears and may have big downside.

JL

 

[Jimmy]

Have your agent reach out to the agent that represented the sellers and discuss the problem. Perhaps they want to avoid going to court as well and a compromise can be reached that both parties find adequate.

 

[Glory]

If you bought a house cheaper than market value of similarly priced hopes of better quality, fix it yourself. You apparently knew that most electrical and plumbing were listed as “self”.

Never imagined a lawyer would even talk to you about a frozen pipe issue.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

Plumbing is Pex.....tongue didn't stick.


The update:

The issue was Pex plumbing that was run up and over in the crawl space. Completely exposed above the joist and not covered with blown in insulation. This bathroom and much of the house was an "afterthought". I believe one...or possibly 2 portions were "Additions"

I didn't know plumbing and electric were "Self" until after the purchase and making inquiries. Less than ideal.

The remedy: Ran heat tape along both Hot and Cold lines. Placed along with ceiling structure and covered sufficiently with insulation.

Thoughts: Still does not change the concept that this has most certainly occurred prior. Temps are still fluctuating between 8 and 13 degrees. Which is not at all unseasonable cold for this region. These are not nearly All Time almanac lows. So my position on Knowledge by prior owner has NOT changed.

I did pay for a spendy professional inspection prior to purchase. This was not called out nor listed anywhere in the report. I am guessing the inspector popped his head up into the crawl space. Saw even and uniform blown in insulation.....and gave it an A on the report.

Keeping the internals of the house warmer than standard would have had no effect on this situation or remedy the issue as only the roof vent screens were separating the external atmospheric temps from the exposed plumbing.

The concept of omitting or not addressing known issues on a disclosure bothers me. I have a difficult time telling a lie. When I sell the home in the future.....it will be hard for me to list "Nope....everything is good. Never had an issue" and pass it on to the next person. I own the issue now. As it was passed on to me like an STD.


"oh that.....yea....that's just chlamydia....I didn't think that really counted...oopsy. But now YOU can check that box every Dr visit for the rest of your life"

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

My agent did reach out with the listing agent who in turn reached out to the former owner/seller. What I got back was "Never had a problem".

Really think someone who didn't fully disclose an issue.....is going to admit an issue after the fact? No Fing way. That would be an admission of fraudulent disclosure.

 

[tdhanses]

If you have to keep the heat up to 80 to keep pipes from freezing, the house is designed poorly.

Haha, it’s over 100 years old, so yes it’s designed poorly and built even worse, lol. It’s getting torn down after the new house is built. It’s probably like the OP’s, built jinky with multiple additions over the last 70 years. But it’s on over 2 acres in the middle of the city.

Point being like others said you have to learn the house, not everyone is in a relatively new properly built home especially if it’s older.

 

[tdhanses]

Plumbing is Pex.....tongue didn't stick.


The update:

The issue was Pex plumbing that was run up and over in the crawl space. Completely exposed above the joist and not covered with blown in insulation. This bathroom and much of the house was an "afterthought". I believe one...or possibly 2 portions were "Additions"

I didn't know plumbing and electric were "Self" until after the purchase and making inquiries. Less than ideal.

The remedy: Ran heat tape along both Hot and Cold lines. Placed along with ceiling structure and covered sufficiently with insulation.

Thoughts: Still does not change the concept that this has most certainly occurred prior. Temps are still fluctuating between 8 and 13 degrees. Which is not at all unseasonable cold for this region. These are not nearly All Time almanac lows. So my position on Knowledge by prior owner has NOT changed.

I did pay for a spendy professional inspection prior to purchase. This was not called out nor listed anywhere in the report. I am guessing the inspector popped his head up into the crawl space. Saw even and uniform blown in insulation.....and gave it an A on the report.

Keeping the internals of the house warmer than standard would have had no effect on this situation or remedy the issue as only the roof vent screens were separating the external atmospheric temps from the exposed plumbing.

The concept of omitting or not addressing known issues on a disclosure bothers me. I have a difficult time telling a lie. When I sell the home in the future.....it will be hard for me to list "Nope....everything is good. Never had an issue" and pass it on to the next person. I own the issue now. As it was passed on to me like an STD.


"oh that.....yea....that's just chlamydia....I didn't think that really counted...oopsy. But now YOU can check that box every Dr visit for the rest of your life"

I get your point but like others said sometimes it’s cheaper to not fight everything, pretty simple fix and sounds like you could resolve the issue so that it is correct vs just leaving as is for less then attorney fees and not have to lie about it when you sell.

I bet with time more issues will arise, just part of home ownership even with new built homes, crap happens.

 

[journeyman713]

Glad you got it taken care of before it got Bad! Real bad.

Congrats on the home purchase. Sounds like you are on the beginning of the learning curve as far as home owning goes and learning fast. Few things can get more expensive than not immediately addressing a problem when it comes to water in the home.

As far as the remedy goes, if I understand it right, he ran plumbing across the attic to the new addition? Yikes! Maybe rerouting pex sometime in the future...
But in the meantime, I'm not sure I would rely on a heat tape for years for long.
If you kept the pex as close to the ceiling as possible, with 18" insulation above it ,and zero insulation between the ceiling and the pex, you would be better off. Heat loss through your ceiling is plenty for this, as long as you trap it with a blanket of insulation over the pex.

 

[RS3579]

My agent did reach out with the listing agent who in turn reached out to the former owner/seller. What I got back was "Never had a problem".

Really think someone who didn't fully disclose an issue.....is going to admit an issue after the fact? No Fing way. That would be an admission of fraudulent disclosure.

What about the neighbors water. I’m hooked on this story now. BTW, make sure the pex is rated for heat tape. It may melt it. Then youbhave a flood.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

So the neighbor/water thingy....

This is more of a moral issue. Seems there must be buried poly pipe from one of my Frost Free hydrant lines. This goes.......off my 10 acres, through the woods, and onto the next parcel. Where she has an above ground 250 gallon tank. After owning the home since July....she texts me "You are aware I get water from you, yes? It shouldn't be a big deal.....you just may lose water pressure if you're in the shower"

So I have a shut off 7' down in my greenhouse. She has a shut off valve down through the tules on her end at her tank.

I wasn't really aware of that. The listing agent mentioned some cutsie/cheeky comment in the listing about "Make sure to check with your neighbor on water.....and she makes the BEST cookies"

Was kinda WTF at the moment. My well is far below my home(opposite corner of property). On the well is a handpump. I liked the concept from a Prepper type standpoint. My home is very remote. Wood heat. Greenhouse. Can grow my own stuff. Heat and water with no power is a bonus.

So I assumed she used the handpump on occasion or something similar.


Oh no.....

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

RE: Pex. My plumbing skills and knowledge are probably -4. Zero clue. I plugged in my heat tape outside and affixed the "Thermostat" to the metal leg of a chair for 24 hours, as I wanted to see how Hot the tape would get. Outdoor temps were 8F or so. It was just over luke warm. Was not at all impressed. So I had no reservations about taping it with high heat tape....to the Pex every foot or so over 15 feet.


Blue and Red and felt pretty stout. There are varying grades of Pex????

 

[DAOutfitters208]

RE: Pex. My plumbing skills and knowledge are probably -4. Zero clue. I plugged in my heat tape outside and affixed the "Thermostat" to the metal leg of a chair for 24 hours, as I wanted to see how Hot the tape would get. Outdoor temps were 8F or so. It was just over luke warm. Was not at all impressed. So I had no reservations about taping it with high heat tape....to the Pex every foot or so over 15 feet.


Blue and Red and felt pretty stout. There are varying grades of Pex????

Not that I am aware of. Used it many times. You could also put tubular foam pipe insulation to put around the pex pipe, that will help a bit as well.

 

[GotDraw?]

@Jesse Jaymes , you *might* be able to hang your hat on the fact that seller failed to disclosed that certain work done on the house was completed by him-- an unlicensed plumber. If you bought the home with the understanding (hopefully in writing) that any/all work done on the house had all proper permits and inspections AND was done by licensed contractor, then you may have a claim with teeth in it, even if Seller states "never had a problem".

You should certainly have the expectation and reliance on the fact that any and all work done on the house was legal, proper and workman-like.

JL