Re-chamber or not?

[Formidilosus]

I'd agree with the above post. Elk are damn tough. I put more rounds than I care to admit in a big bull at 540 yards and watched him soak up the bullets. I've watched those same 165 grain accubonds pancake elk inside of 300 yards a bunch of times. That elk died but I moved up to heavier bullets after that. They're just tough.

And yet thousands are killed every year with pointed sticks...

You believe that a heavier bullet is going to change that? If so, how?

People say- “I shot the elk with a 300 mag multiple times and it went 100 yards! A 243 and it would have went over the mountain”. This is a fallacy. Save for CNS disruption, things die due to blood loss or suffocation. The amount of tissue damage done by appropriate bullets in 6, 6.5, 7mm, etc is similar enough to be be nearly indistinguishable from each other.

 

[WeiserBucks]

If you can't distinguish the difference in tissue damage between a fast 6mm and a fast 7mm, you need new glasses.

 

[Formidilosus]

If you can't distinguish the difference in tissue damage between a fast 6mm and a fast 7mm, you need new glasses.

I’m a fan of experience in the first hand, and am willing to learn- can you please share your photos and experience with fast 6mm’s and fast 7mm’s on elk and the resulting differences in wound channels?

 

[WeiserBucks]

I don't have any photographic evidence, but I've shot plenty of elk myself and witnessed plenty of others harvest elk with everything from a .243 Win to a .338 Norma at ranges from 20 to 1282 yards. As the bullets get larger and heavier, the damage to internal organs and everything else in the way of them goes up.

I realize that your opinion is gospel on this site, but don't blow smoke up our ass saying that small, light bullets are equal in tissue damage to large, heavy bullets.

 

[Dioni A]

And yet thousands are killed every year with pointed sticks...

You believe that a heavier bullet is going to change that? If so, how?

People say- “I shot the elk with a 300 mag multiple times and it went 100 yards! A 243 and it would have went over the mountain”. This is a fallacy. Save for CNS disruption, things die due to blood loss or suffocation. The amount of tissue damage done by appropriate bullets in 6, 6.5, 7mm, etc is similar enough to be be nearly indistinguishable from each other.

Plenty of shit gets killed by arrows or even poison but that doesn't have much to do with how a bullet works.. lol
I say that for a few reasons. When I cut up the bull I had 6 shots in what I considered the vital area. The damage from those bullets was significantly less than what I've seen the same bullets do at closer ranges. I also videoed the kill and have re watched how that bull just soaked up what most would consider well placed shots. When I worked up my new load I was able to run the heavier bullets at nearly the same speed which as we all know means more energy and with a better bc it will carry that energy farther.

I respect your opinion when it comes to rifles but I've also seen a couple dozen elk die. When everything's right you can kill them with about anything. Unfortunately the real world doesn't always provide a perfect situation. We don't all make perfect wind calls. Have a perfect rest. Or the level of proficiency your line of work has afforded you. I like to think I can shoot pretty damn well and limit myself to ranges I'm confident in. But the elk still have a say and some of them are damn tough. I'd rather send more lead.

 

[wind gypsy]

A 7-08 to me may have same challenge, just not enough powder to push the heavier (over 140 class .284 bullets) to speeds to kill past 5-600. idk

You could push a 162 ELDm fast enough in a tikka set up with a long action magazine.

 

[204guy]

Man you got a lot of angles going on here.

As said above your Ruger is a .532 bolt face and wouldn't be worth altering. Could use any number of short mags. You can measure your own mag box length easy enough.

The Montana has a 2.8" mag box. So 6.5 creed or 7mm-08 are probably your best bets. Keeping your Montana in 308 and shooting something like the 155 Scenar will take you to 600yds easy and would be the most economical.

 

[Shraggs]

I do have wrestling in my head!

it would be easier if there weren’t shortages too.

above I did say I won’t be altering the 350. I do have 2 mid bores. Having potent big calibers I believe in, although my 7 mm is gone and maybe the 350 will go. Still love the right ones.

I have not killed an elk, yet, but I don’t even know how many deer I have. Seen over 3 decades of 40 or so paying hunters annually kill on family farm, and butchering with grandfather. Wounding was fascinating observation for me as a youngster. Today, there are advances in terminal Bullet performance and I want to explore that.

one of my main objectives is to add a very capable lower recoil, priority, to the stable. My truck can easily fit a few options on a trip!

 

[Formidilosus]

As the bullets get larger and heavier, the damage to internal organs and everything else in the way of them goes up.

Of course it does given equal construction.

I realize that your opinion is gospel on this site, but don't blow smoke up our ass saying that small, light bullets are equal in tissue damage to large, heavy bullets.

I try not to have opinions, and nothing is gospel. The difference in wound channel between an optimized 6mm and the same for a 7mm is around 1 inch in diameter and 2 inches longer for the TC. Depending on bullet, the total penetration of the 7mm may be a couple of inches more. Bigger yes, but hardly earth shattering; and no, no one could walk up and say which wound was which. They could walk up and say “this one is a fragmenting bullet, and this one is a controlled expansion, probably mono bullet”.

The idea that .00001327% (MIP) difference in weight between two bullets when in comparison to the size of an elk, is some massive issue... is perplexing.

Like you, I’ve seen the results of hundreds of medium to big game killed with everything from .224’s to 338’s. Given ideal bullets from each there is no real difference in incapacitation time between any of them until you get to heavy fragmenting 30cals. The TC and PC of very heavy, rapidly fragmenting 30cals is large enough to start having an effect on the CNS for some shots. The flip side to that, is that hit rates go down as recoil goes up.

 

[Lawnboi]

Others may chime in on it as well but I don’t think your going to like carrying a 24-26” rifle suppressed for general hunting.

I’d factor that in, and pick a cartridge that’s going to get you the speed you want at 600 yards with an 18-20” barrel

 

[Formidilosus]

Plenty of shit gets killed by arrows or even poison but that doesn't have much to do with how a bullet works.. lol

Ok. What’s the difference in how bullets work and arrows?

I say that for a few reasons. When I cut up the bull I had 6 shots in what I considered the vital area. The damage from those bullets was significantly less than what I've seen the same bullets do at closer ranges.

Ignoring that animals are individualsand all will react differently, lack of weight didn’t cause that- lack of tissue damage did. Had you used a 168gr Berger VLD, tissue damage would have been considerably more. Bonded, controlled expansion bullets do not create wide wounds at lower impact velocities- regardless of weight.

I also videoed the kill and have re watched how that bull just soaked up what most would consider well placed shots. When I worked up my new load I was able to run the heavier bullets at nearly the same speed which as we all know means more energy and with a better bc it will carry that energy farther.

Can you explain to me how “ft-lbs” of energy kills?

I respect your opinion when it comes to rifles but I've also seen a couple dozen elk die. When everything's right you can kill them with about anything. Unfortunately the real world doesn't always provide a perfect situation. We don't all make perfect wind calls. Have a perfect rest. Or the level of proficiency your line of work has afforded you. I like to think I can shoot pretty damn well and limit myself to ranges I'm confident in. But the elk still have a say and some of them are damn tough. I'd rather send more lead.

The problem isn’t more lead. The problem is #1 hitting, then #2 creating sufficient damage to vitals to cause death. There is a 30something page thread full of pictures that show 223’s with a certain bullet creating larger wounds in deer, antelope, bear, elk, and moose from almost contact to nearly 600 yards, than a 165gr Accubond does. No, it generally won’t penetrate as deep as the AB, but that bullet penetrates deep enough to be devastating.

 

[eaglemountainman]

Would a 260 Rem with a 7 1/2 or 8 twist be an option? The long range thing is not for me. But, I'm thinking the 260 with a fast twist could do what most of the other rounds mentioned can do, and maybe, better....

 

[Dioni A]

Ok. What’s the difference in how bullets work and arrows?




Ignoring that animals are individualsand all will react differently, lack of weight didn’t cause that- lack of tissue damage did. Had you used a 168gr Berger VLD, tissue damage would have been considerably more. Bonded, controlled expansion bullets do not create wide wounds at lower impact velocities- regardless of weight.



Can you explain to me how “ft-lbs” of energy kills?





The problem isn’t more lead. The problem is #1 hitting, then #2 creating sufficient damage to vitals to cause death. There is a 30something page thread full of pictures that show 223’s with a certain bullet creating larger wounds in deer, antelope, bear, elk, and moose from almost contact to nearly 600 yards, than a 165gr Accubond does. No, it generally won’t penetrate as deep as the AB, but that bullet penetrates deep enough to be devastating.

funny you should mention that exact bullet. Experiences vary...

 

[Formidilosus]

funny you should mention that exact bullet. Experiences vary...

We’re those all pulled from animals? If so, what were the impact velocities and and resulting tissue damage? Animal reactions?

 

[Dioni A]

We’re those all pulled from animals? If so, what were the impact velocities and and resulting tissue damage? Animal reactions?

The bullet that looks smashed sideways came from my profile pic buck shot head on at 570 yards it left at 2905fps don't remember impact. Took the heart out and ended up in the hind quarter, buck died almost instantly. The one that looks like an s came from a deer at 150 yards. Hit him in the back edge of the shoulder found that in the off side. He took off and I shot him again standing in thick timber at 200 yards in the neck. That bullet penciled through but was not recovered (I don't read much into this one) buck shifted behind trees not offering a shot and died in a couple minutes. I had a third buck that year that I shot from a great rest on bipod with rear bag at 130 yards perfect broad side shoot on an unaware deer. I am 100 percent certain I got the deer perfectly behind the shoulder but never found a drop off blood or a deer to confirm after 2 days of looking. He acted completely un harmed. I contacted Berger after that season and they sent me a shipping label to return them. They sent me multiple boxes of bullets as an apology and said it was a bad batch. I still have the emails. Fluke or not I have no confidence in their product now.

 

[Formidilosus]

The bullet that looks smashed sideways came from my profile pic buck shot head on at 570 yards it left at 2905fps don't remember impact. Took the heart out and ended up in the hind quarter, buck died almost instantly. The one that looks like an s came from a deer at 150 yards. Hit him in the back edge of the shoulder found that in the off side. He took off and I shot him again standing in thick timber at 200 yards in the neck. That bullet penciled through but was not recovered (I don't read much into this one) buck shifted behind trees not offering a shot and died in a couple minutes. I had a third buck that year that I shot from a great rest on bipod with rear bag at 130 yards perfect broad side shoot on an unaware deer. I am 100 percent certain I got the deer perfectly behind the shoulder but never found a drop off blood or a deer to confirm after 2 days of looking. He acted completely un harmed. I contacted Berger after that season and they sent me a shipping label to return them. They sent me multiple boxes of ammo as an apology and said it was a bad batch. I still have the emails. Fluke or not I have no confidence in their product now.

Thank you. My next question was if they were from the same lot#. While I understand it can be hard to move past, all bullets can and will have issues. Bergers are generally not my preference, but they do tend to work well. I have personally seen bad lots of Accubonds, Barnes TSX, Sierra’s, etc. Pretty much the only bullet I haven’t seen weird stuff from are Nosler Partitions, though I’m sure someone has.

 

[Dioni A]

Thank you. My next question was if they were from the same lot#. While I understand it can be hard to move past, all bullets can and will have issues. Bergers are generally not my preference, but they do tend to work well. I have personally seen bad lots of Accubonds, Barnes TSX, Sierra’s, etc. Pretty much the only bullet I haven’t seen weird stuff from are Nosler Partitions, though I’m sure someone has.

They were all out of the same box.

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

Of course it does given equal construction.




I try not to have opinions, and nothing is gospel. The difference in wound channel between an optimized 6mm and the same for a 7mm is around 1 inch in diameter and 2 inches longer for the TC. Depending on bullet, the total penetration of the 7mm may be a couple of inches more. Bigger yes, but hardly earth shattering; and no, no one could walk up and say which wound was which. They could walk up and say “this one is a fragmenting bullet, and this one is a controlled expansion, probably mono bullet”.

The idea that .00001327% (MIP) difference in weight between two bullets when in comparison to the size of an elk, is some massive issue... is perplexing.

Like you, I’ve seen the results of hundreds of medium to big game killed with everything from .224’s to 338’s. Given ideal bullets from each there is no real difference in incapacitation time between any of them until you get to heavy fragmenting 30cals. The TC and PC of very heavy, rapidly fragmenting 30cals is large enough to start having an effect on the CNS for some shots. The flip side to that, is that hit rates go down as recoil goes up.

You're cherry picking your points here while leaving out some important shit

The relation between weight , mass, and penetration should not be complexing.
I've seen what happens when a 143 grain eldx meets an elk shoulder at 350 yards, the wound was a speckle compared to another bull I witnessed hit the exact same at 700 yards with a 225 ELD-M

Also these little 224s and 6mms run out of gas way the hell faster than a 180 or 195 7mm at long range

 

[mtnlomo]

For what a new barrel costs I'd just buy a 7/08 tikka and sell one of your other rifles.

A 6.5 creedmoor will kill elk at 600 yards but I'd sure rather have a 7/08 for that task.

A third for the 7/08, I have used mine before for elk and it is more than adequate and the recoil is such that my kid sister can shoot it all day.

 

[Formidilosus]

You're cherry picking your points here while leaving out some important shit

Wound width and wound depth is what I am referencing and both can and are measured. What am I cherry picking

The relation between weight , mass, and penetration should not be complexing.
I've seen what happens when a 143 grain eldx meets an elk shoulder at 350 yards, the wound was a speckle compared to another bull I witnessed hit the exact same at 700 yards with a 225 ELD-M

A speckle? Now granted my experience with 143gr ELD-X on elk at longer range is two at 735 yards from a Creedmoor (though have killed elk at LR with the CM the last couple of years at 666, 676, and 801

These are not a “speckles”-

Also these little 224s and 6mms run out of gas way the hell faster than a 180 or 195 7mm at long range

What is “run out of gas”? Impact velocities can be significantly higher than required with .224’s and 6mm’s at very long range.