Questions on dies

[Muley Buck]

How can I get the proper bushing size? Can I measure factory rounds with the same bullet and brass to get the diameter then go 2 thousandths below that for my target neck size?

I am using Nosler brass with 160 Accubonds. I also have some factory rounds so I’m essentially making the same round.

Yes, as long as you are using the same brass and bullets. I would still check the first few loaded rounds to make sure everything is to spec.

 

[Vandy321]

If you only go 2 thou under then try to expand out to 2 thou...you wont be doing anything with the expander. If you want to expand out to set final tension, you need to over compress the neck a bit to be able to expand out, it'll also push the impurities in the brass out of the inside of the case neck, another plus.

Measure a loaded round, neck OD diameter.

My 300wm is .336 loaded diameter...this answer is from a 4 page thread on LRH.

308 for bullet, and neck wall is .014 x 2 sides...or just measure OD of a loaded round with calipers if you dont have a neck wall/tubing micrometer

So take .336 and now use that to find your sizes. If you want to set say 2 thou neck tension, you can get a .332 bushing, and then a .306 expander mandrel with spring back, you would get close to 1.5-2 though neck tension.

 

[Unknown Munitions]

How can I get the proper bushing size? Can I measure factory rounds with the same bullet and brass to get the diameter then go 2 thousandths below that for my target neck size?

I am using Nosler brass with 160 Accubonds. I also have some factory rounds so I’m essentially making the same round.

Yes, that will work but if you'd like to use the carbide expander mandrel as prescribed above you want to pull the neck in tighter than final measurement to expand it back out slightly and set neck tension. We use the expander mandrel method on every round we load, it will push imperfections outward and leave a concentric neck ready for trimming and seating.

 

[Muley Buck]

Well now I have to look up what a expander mandrel is.

You jumped in!

 

[MuleyFever]

I will have to reach out to get more info on the mandrel and how it’s set up, what I all need to use it.

 

[MuleyFever]

You jumped in!

I sure did ignore the no diving sign. Feels like I hit my head pretty good on the bottom too.

 

[Muley Buck]

I will have to reach out to get more info on the mandrel and how it’s set up, what I all need to use it.

 

[MuleyFever]

Sets neck tension from the inside out...said to be more consistent than neck sizing down alone. So oversize down, then expand out. The guys at 21st century can help you do the math if needed...so can google, for bushing and mandrel sizes.

http://www.xxicsi.com/arbors-and-mandrels.html

So I see a turning arbor and a mandrel. My understanding is the mandrel is what I want to go into their die and fit in my press?

Looks like I just order the one for 7mm. No math to do there right?

Titanium nitride worth the $10?

Expander die body for the mandrel, which type? With ring-free floating or without ring?

 

[wind gypsy]

So I see a turning arbor and a mandrel. My understanding is the mandrel is what I want to go into their die and fit in my press?

Looks like I just order the one for 7mm. No math to do there right?

Titanium nitride worth the $10?

Expander die body for the mandrel, which type? With ring-free floating or without ring?

It seems that the mandrels linked were to prep brass for turning rather than set neck tension. I'd make sure it was small enough to ensure sufficient neck tension before buying. My K&M mandrels for neck turning expand too much for sufficient neck tension so I bought these custom sized ones for setting tension (typically 0.0025" tension).
https://kmshooting.com/case-neck-expanding/expanding-mandrel-kits.html

Seems you'd want to choose one of these if going with 21st century.

http://www.xxicsi.com/expander-mandrels.html

As far as with or without ring, you need a ring so unless you have extra laying around, get one. I buy a bunch of these to replace the crappy rings that come with most dies and giraud trimmer case adapters. https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-0446...VPXATD4DBTB&psc=1&refRID=6MZ8TY6VGVPXATD4DBTB

It's worth noting that these expanders are not necessary. If budget conscious but wanting top quality end product, I'd get a standard forster FL sizing die and benchrest seating die. You can have forster sizing dies custom honed to set the desired neck tension without using an expander ball but folks seem to make plenty fine brass with them keeping the ball on as well.

 

[Muley Buck]

It seems that the mandrels linked were to prep brass for turning rather than set neck tension. I'd make sure it was small enough to ensure sufficient neck tension before buying. My K&M mandrels for neck turning expand too much for sufficient neck tension so I bought these custom sized ones for setting tension (typically 0.0025" tension).
https://kmshooting.com/case-neck-expanding/expanding-mandrel-kits.html

Seems you'd want to choose one of these if going with 21st century.

http://www.xxicsi.com/expander-mandrels.html

As far as with or without ring, you need a ring so unless you have extra laying around, get one. I buy a bunch of these to replace the crappy rings that come with most dies and giraud trimmer case adapters. https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-0446...VPXATD4DBTB&psc=1&refRID=6MZ8TY6VGVPXATD4DBTB

It's worth noting that these expanders are not necessary. If budget conscious but wanting top quality end product, I'd get a standard forster FL sizing die and benchrest seating die. You can have forster sizing dies custom honed to set the desired neck tension without using an expander ball but folks seem to make plenty fine brass with them keeping the ball on as well.

I noticed that the mandrel link was wrong as well. The one you put up there is the correct one for the intended use.

I agree with all of that @wind gypsy, except that unfortunately Forster doesn't make dies that accommodate 280ai. I suggested that he call and ask if they would make one custom for him. He did and the reply was, "no, not at this time" according to @MuleyFever

 

[MuleyFever]

So after researching the last few days I'm really at one decision I am still struggling with and that is if I should FL resize or not for every load.

Regarding the mandrel to set the neck size, doesn't a die with the expander ball do the same thing? It sizes by pushing the neck back out right? Or am I misunderstanding.

 

[Vandy321]

Sorry, yes, they make turning mandrels and expander mandrels. The expander mandrels will come in packs or you can order by size, say .306, .3055, etc, to suit your desired neck tension.

Recommend just giving them a shout tomorrow and have them explain it to you.

Yes, it drops into their expander die body.

Be sure to order some imperial dry neck lube to dip your necks in before using that bushing die and or the mandrels.

 

[Vandy321]

So after researching the last few days I'm really at one decision I am still struggling with and that is if I should FL resize or not for every load.

Regarding the mandrel to set the neck size, doesn't a die with the expander ball do the same thing? It sizes by pushing the neck back out right? Or am I misunderstanding.

The expander ball on a FL die is said to be inconsistent and have much higher runout than can be achieved with the neck bushing die and an expander mandrel.

 

[wind gypsy]

So after researching the last few days I'm really at one decision I am still struggling with and that is if I should FL resize or not for every load.

Regarding the mandrel to set the neck size, doesn't a die with the expander ball do the same thing? It sizes by pushing the neck back out right? Or am I misunderstanding.

You should plan on using a full length sizing die to minimally bump shoulders back every time.

The majority of hand loaders do fine using the expander button that comes with their fl sizing dies. However, expanding with mandrels has shown to be easier to create low runout ammo. You may or may not see the difference in your groups.

 

[Vandy321]

You should plan on using a full length sizing die to minimally bump shoulders back every time.

The majority of hand loaders do fine using the expander button that comes with their fl sizing dies. However, expanding with mandrels has shown to be easier to create low runout ammo. You may or may not see the difference in your groups.

There was a 'should' in there and I'm curious why? If a body die and then neck bushing/mandrel is proven to produce lower runout, then why should he use a FL size die? You can still bump the shoulder back every time with a body die if desired.

Not arguing, just curious what I may be missing for my own process?

 

[ckleeves]

IMO neck sizing for a few firings then full length or bump sizing is a bad practice. Bump the same every firing with a full length and go with it.

Redding comp shell holders make it pretty easy and very consistent for not a huge investment.

I own both and I’m not really that crazy about bushing dies. Guys think they are better because they cost more but unless your annealing every firing your still getting variances in neck tension.

If your using a bushing die without an expander ball then your still getting variance unless you neck turn. You can use a mandrel and solve the problems (no expander ball, bushing die, mandrel expander) but your going to quite a bit of effort for something you may or may not see any change in accuracy.







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[Vandy321]

I neck turn also. the benefits of neck bushing die then expander mandrel were desirable to me, and so was not bumping the shoulder every firing. The only benefit I could see of the FL sizing die with the expander button instead was...it saves time. To each his own, both ways will make ammo that goes bang, if that is the goal.

When you shoot as bad I do, you need all the help you can in the accuracy/consistency department. I dont mind the extra time, I jusr try to view it as a hobby, not a chore. Then again, I'm reloading for fun and the learning, not on a time clock to knock out rounds for competitions.

 

[ckleeves]

I neck turn also. the benefits of neck bushing die then expander mandrel were desirable to me, and so was not bumping the shoulder every firing. The only benefit I could see of the FL sizing die with the expander button instead was...it saves time. To each his own, both ways will make ammo that goes bang, if that is the goal.

When you shoot as bad I do, you need all the help you can in the accuracy/consistency department. I dont mind the extra time, I jusr try to view it as a hobby, not a chore. Then again, I'm reloading for fun and the learning, not on a time clock to knock out rounds for competitions.

What is your reason for not bumping every firing? Everybody has different methods, I’m not saying your doing it wrong or anything just curious.


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[Vandy321]

What is your reason for not bumping every firing? Everybody has different methods, I’m not saying your doing it wrong or anything just curious.


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Not overworking the brass mainly. I'm cheap. I just try to keep 2 piles of brass and make sure I use either all body sized/bumped brass, or all brass that is fired/not bumped, to ensure case capacity is identical.

My main reason for not using the FL die though is I got a good deal on the set. I would however, had I had a FL die, remove the expander ball and still use the bushing mandrel method. I've jsut been brainwashed by the internet to believe that method produces the most consistent result

 

[ckleeves]

Makes sense. I look at things differently then a lot of guys because I really don’t like reloading. I look at it as something I have to do but I don’t get any real enjoyment out of it I guess.

So if I can find a quicker way of doing something with equal results I’m all in. If I see a big enough benefit for doing something Ill do it (grudgingly lol)

IME some brass work hardens so fast regardless of sizing method that annealing is more important for neck tension then what sizing method is used.




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